Re: Nothing to hide, nothing to fear? : Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:42 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

The point is - unless you can actually point to an even halfway usable technology which can replace the colossal quantities of fresh water we've just frittered away you'll forgive me for retaining my scepticism.

I'm a child of the 50s, when I was 10 years old I confidently expected to have been obliterated by a Russian nuke by now, so forgive me but its not in my nature to be pessimistic.

Re: Nothing to hide, nothing to fear? : Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:00 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

I see the problem as less to do with debt than resources and growth. With unlimited quantities of resources (specifically energy) it's theoretically possible to carry on with a debt-based economic model indefinitely. Western economies are entirely dependent on growth - unlimited growth. But in a resource-finite environment it's only a matter of time before the upward momentum of growth hits the intractable downward spiral of resources and their depletion.

You only need look at the population statistics over the last few hundred thousand years to quickly gain an appreciation of this truism. For many thousands of years population seemed fixed to a few million inhabitants with the number of deaths broadly matching the number of births per annum. It's only around the Renaissance period when the trend began its ever-quickening acceleration to what we see today. It was at that period when we first began to really see the benefits from cheap, condensed forms of carbon-rich energy laid down during archaic periods of the earth's history. Go back a hundred years or so when petroleum products really hit the market and population growth really does kick into hyperdrive.

Population is no different to any other inflationary bubble. Take away the fuelling agent (literally and figuratively) and it'll burst.

Dwindling resources, will eventually be our downfall. However, I see the collapse in our economy to be the catalyst that initially sets the house of cards alight. It's how we've managed to expand to breaking point for so long - because we've had the ability to pay to keep the wheels in motion, to transport food, fuel, materials and labour to anywhere in the world. But, when those wheels stop turning, just how long will it take for everything to fall apart? It's not as if we have a solid manufacturing base to be able to produce our way out of trouble, and it's not as if we are self sufficient in terms of our resources.

Regarding energy, if we're not going to throw all our efforts into wind and solar energy, then we have to pursue nuclear power. It goes against the general consensus, but the facts are that it's more efficient than other renewables, and it's safer than we're led to believe by the media.
Either way, if we don't change course now both, environmentally, and economically, then our age of decadence will be over, and we'll suffer the same fate as every other empire in history.

Re: Nothing to hide, nothing to fear? : Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:08 pm  

JerryChicken wrote: I'm a child of the 50s, when I was 10 years old I confidently expected to have been obliterated by a Russian nuke by now, so forgive me but its not in my nature to be pessimistic. Patience, squire http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-33151125

JerryChicken wrote: I'm a child of the 50s, when I was 10 years old I confidently expected to have been obliterated by a Russian nuke by now, so forgive me but its not in my nature to be pessimistic. Patience, squire http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-33151125

Re: Nothing to hide, nothing to fear? : Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:14 pm  

Charlie Sheen wrote: Patience, squire http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-33151125 A Republican will be along soon with some Star Wars stories to put them back in their box.

Charlie Sheen wrote: Patience, squire http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-33151125 A Republican will be along soon with some Star Wars stories to put them back in their box.

Re: Nothing to hide, nothing to fear? : Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:42 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

I'm a child of the 50s, when I was 10 years old I confidently expected to have been obliterated by a Russian nuke by now, so forgive me but its not in my nature to be pessimistic.

Bearing in mind that the United States Congress passed legislation in 2002/3 which grants a three star general authorisation to both deploy and use nuclear weapons WITHOUT approval from the President you are probably more likely to be obliterated right now. Given that another Bush is likely to occupy the White House at some point in the near future and the best alternative the Democrats can currently muster is the wife of the world's biggest arms dealer and self described "Best Friend of Israel" it might be time to start rehearsing your "Duck & Cover" preparedness.

In any case, natural optimism is about as irrational as natural pessimism. No amount of it will conjure new reserves of fresh water or fossil fuels. But you are welcome to stand over an empty bucket and mentally project waves of such in its direction.

Let me know how you get on.

Re: Nothing to hide, nothing to fear? : Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:13 am  

Charlie Sheen wrote:

Dwindling resources, will eventually be our downfall. However, I see the collapse in our economy to be the catalyst that initially sets the house of cards alight. It's how we've managed to expand to breaking point for so long - because we've had the ability to pay to keep the wheels in motion, to transport food, fuel, materials and labour to anywhere in the world. But, when those wheels stop turning, just how long will it take for everything to fall apart? It's not as if we have a solid manufacturing base to be able to produce our way out of trouble, and it's not as if we are self sufficient in terms of our resources.

Economic collapse is inevitable - not least because it's good business. No amount of economic stability is capable of replicating the kind of colossal profits which can be had out of turmoil. Consider the number of Russian billionaires which were created when the old Soviet economy tanked under Yeltsin. A few million spent here and there acquiring state assets for way below the market rate never yielded so much juicy fruit. Of course, the Russian people didn't do too well - but that's just bad luck on their part.

Regarding energy, if we're not going to throw all our efforts into wind and solar energy, then we have to pursue nuclear power. It goes against the general consensus, but the facts are that it's more efficient than other renewables, and it's safer than we're led to believe by the media.

There were some very safe forms of nuclear energy developed during the 70s and 80s which didn't involve the use of water or (worse still) graphite as a nuclear moderating agent and/or coolant. All of such were squashed by the oil and coal industries. Many of the skills involved in constructing those powerplants have now been lost and it would take perhaps thirty or forty years for us to get back to that point of development.

But this still leaves the problem of rolling out such on a sufficiently wide scale to make up for the shortfall in hydrocarbons. Bear in mind that it took the best part of FORTY YEARS to construct the network of filling stations and support infrastructure upon which our automotive society is entirely dependent.

The problem is we need functioning alternatives rolled out on global scale RIGHT NOW.

Re: Nothing to hide, nothing to fear? : Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:31 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

In any case, natural optimism is about as irrational as natural pessimism. No amount of it will conjure new reserves of fresh water or fossil fuels. But you are welcome to stand over an empty bucket and mentally project waves of such in its direction.

Let me know how you get on.

Don't know if this has ever been tried by anyone but I reckon that living in the UK you could conjure up all the fresh(ish) rainwater you need every year just by leaving buckets laid out across your back garden, my water butt collects enough off my garage roof for me to open the tap and throw it away throughout the year.

Of course, you need a back garden first, mine is ideal as it slopes towards the house, simply line it with corrugated plastic and sit in the kitchen waiting for the torrents.

Re: Nothing to hide, nothing to fear? : Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:57 pm  

JerryChicken wrote: Don't know if this has ever been tried by anyone but I reckon that living in the UK you could conjure up all the fresh(ish) rainwater you need every year just by leaving buckets laid out across your back garden, my water butt collects enough off my garage roof for me to open the tap and throw it away throughout the year. Of course, you need a back garden first, mine is ideal as it slopes towards the house, simply line it with corrugated plastic and sit in the kitchen waiting for the torrents. I'm sorry, old bean, but I'm afraid you're missing the point. The days when nation states (nevermind individuals!) reserved the right to declare ownership and exercise control over their own natural resources are long gone. We're living in a global marketplace. Once they finally manage to dot the Is and cross the Ts on TTIP (in secret by unelected, unaccountable Wall Street lawyers) and railroad it through Congress and the European Union it will become increasingly difficult for any nation state to claim privileges over natural resources such as water. Leaving aside the fact that decades of under investment in the water system since privatization mean even here, in Britain, we are often far closer to shortfall than abundance and any surplus we might enjoy will be little more than the recognition of such. So whilst it might land in your garden that water really belongs to Mr. Chow in Bangkok who just outbid you for the luxury. The world's biggest water traders such as Danone have already stated that they believe fresh water should no longer be considered a "human right". They and other major providers were behind the disastrous pilot study carried out in Bolivia which made the act of collecting rainwater for personal use illegal resulting in the infamous Cochabamba Protests The water companies suffered an enormous amount of bad publicity over Bolivia. But this meme that we should have no rights over water isn't going away. They'll regroup and launch another assault in ten or twenty years. Most likely it will coincide seamlessly with a period of extreme drought and water stress thus making reduced rights sound just that bit more "rational" to the average Joe. Big corporations succeed because they are willing to play the "long game". That and relying on the endless stupidity, gullibility and goldfish memories of 98% of the public.

JerryChicken wrote: Don't know if this has ever been tried by anyone but I reckon that living in the UK you could conjure up all the fresh(ish) rainwater you need every year just by leaving buckets laid out across your back garden, my water butt collects enough off my garage roof for me to open the tap and throw it away throughout the year. Of course, you need a back garden first, mine is ideal as it slopes towards the house, simply line it with corrugated plastic and sit in the kitchen waiting for the torrents. I'm sorry, old bean, but I'm afraid you're missing the point. The days when nation states (nevermind individuals!) reserved the right to declare ownership and exercise control over their own natural resources are long gone. We're living in a global marketplace. Once they finally manage to dot the Is and cross the Ts on TTIP (in secret by unelected, unaccountable Wall Street lawyers) and railroad it through Congress and the European Union it will become increasingly difficult for any nation state to claim privileges over natural resources such as water. Leaving aside the fact that decades of under investment in the water system since privatization mean even here, in Britain, we are often far closer to shortfall than abundance and any surplus we might enjoy will be little more than the recognition of such. So whilst it might land in your garden that water really belongs to Mr. Chow in Bangkok who just outbid you for the luxury. The world's biggest water traders such as Danone have already stated that they believe fresh water should no longer be considered a "human right". They and other major providers were behind the disastrous pilot study carried out in Bolivia which made the act of collecting rainwater for personal use illegal resulting in the infamous Cochabamba Protests The water companies suffered an enormous amount of bad publicity over Bolivia. But this meme that we should have no rights over water isn't going away. They'll regroup and launch another assault in ten or twenty years. Most likely it will coincide seamlessly with a period of extreme drought and water stress thus making reduced rights sound just that bit more "rational" to the average Joe. Big corporations succeed because they are willing to play the "long game". That and relying on the endless stupidity, gullibility and goldfish memories of 98% of the public.

Re: Nothing to hide, nothing to fear? : Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:51 am  

Mugwump wrote:

I'm sorry, old bean, but I'm afraid you're missing the point. The days when nation states (nevermind individuals!) reserved the right to declare ownership and exercise control over their own natural resources are long gone.

We're living in a global marketplace. Once they finally manage to dot the Is and cross the Ts on TTIP (in secret by unelected, unaccountable Wall Street lawyers) and railroad it through Congress and the European Union it will become increasingly difficult for any nation state to claim privileges over natural resources such as water. Leaving aside the fact that decades of under investment in the water system since privatization mean even here, in Britain, we are often far closer to shortfall than abundance and any surplus we might enjoy will be little more than the recognition of such. So whilst it might land in your garden that water really belongs to Mr. Chow in Bangkok who just outbid you for the luxury.

Oh I don't doubt for one minute that that indeed is the truth and here in Yorkshire we all know exactly what its like for a monopoly business to mis-manage water resources so that they have to drive tankers all over the county to share it around, but the point is that if you collect and use rainwater for yourself, Mr Chow of Bangkok has to come around and catch you doing it and then do something about it, 60 million times over.

Anyway, cheer up, its a nice day and the sunshine is still free.

Re: Nothing to hide, nothing to fear? : Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:13 am  

NASA confirm freshwater supplies dwindling. http://rt.com/news/267898-nasa-study-world-water/ Also, Washington state is currently experiencing the worst drought in recorded history apparently.

NASA confirm freshwater supplies dwindling. http://rt.com/news/267898-nasa-study-world-water/ Also, Washington state is currently experiencing the worst drought in recorded history apparently.