Re: It's Donald Trump : Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:01 pm  

King Street Cat wrote:

That used to be the case but in this age of information overload we have 24/7 news, social media, bloggers, online opinion pieces, forums, message boards, comments sections and celebrities wanting in on the action. There are literally thousands of different versions of the same story. Everyone has become a self certified political expert. Just look at recent events; Russell Brand's crusade against capitalism, Lily Allen as the representative of the Calais migrants and Gary Linekar seems to have taken it upon himself to be the mouthpiece of the liberal left. We live in bat poop crazy times and politics is reflecting them, if anything Trump isn't nuts enough!

It's ok, Lily Allen is starting a revolution tomorrow apparently

[DaveO]

Re: It's Donald Trump : Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:26 pm  

King Street Cat wrote:

That used to be the case but in this age of information overload we have 24/7 news, social media, bloggers, online opinion pieces, forums, message boards, comments sections and celebrities wanting in on the action. There are literally thousands of different versions of the same story. Everyone has become a self certified political expert. Just look at recent events; Russell Brand's crusade against capitalism, Lily Allen as the representative of the Calais migrants and Gary Linekar seems to have taken it upon himself to be the mouthpiece of the liberal left. We live in bat poop crazy times and politics is reflecting them, if anything Trump isn't nuts enough!

Surely the point is that it is STILL the case and even more so because all these outlets are setting themselves up as self proclaimed experts scepticism should be even greater. It clearly isn't and the problem is people want to be fed information instead of going to have a look for themselves. A case in point being just about anything to do with how the EU works. It's all there on the EU web sites to go and find out how democratic (or not) the thing is or how it works but people could not be arsed because farage or whoever told them it was some sort of German led dictatorship. Does my head in people can't be bothered to go and question things for themselves.

Re: It's Donald Trump : Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:47 pm  

I honestly can't see Trump lasting the full four years - either he'll resign (doubt it) or will get shot.

Re: It's Donald Trump : Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:23 pm  

7% of Americans have a passport. Around 70% of Americans have never travelled more than 30 miles from wher they were born. Most American TV stations don't show a news programme.
The terminally stupid voted and won, just like happened here.
Somehow, as an example, you get the feeling that in America the voters now believe their factories will reopen overnight, they will get a job and continue to produce the kind of crap that caused the problem in the first place.
2017 will be a " fun " year.

Re: It's Donald Trump : Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:57 pm  

LeagueFan - its exactly that sort of patronising and insulting attitude that makes so many want to make a protest vote, and sod the consequences. Like telling all people who voted for Brexit that they are racist morons, the effect when they next vote may well be the exact opposite of what you want.

DaveO - when has it ever been the case that any but the smallest number of people 'educated themselves in the facts' of important issues? I'd suggest people are no lazier than they were, and if anything are probably bombarded by more information than ever before. The problem is the bias and factual distortion that goes on all over the place. When it came to Brexit, for example, why would you think any more than a tiny minority would have looked at all the facts in detail? The majority never does anything of the sort.

IMO its a lot to do with people (both right or left) ONLY soliciting information and views from sources that already tally with their world view. Any attempt to engage in discussion in even the most neutral of tones is met with outrage and insults, rather than attempts to persuade by reasoned argument. We used to see a lot of that on this very board and many of Corbyn's supporters show exactly the same total and utter disdain for anyone who thinks differently.

Its hugely elitist IMO to write Trump supporters and 'Brexiteers' off as uneducated fools. Or to expect people to educate themselves in some way totally at odds with the way information is now generated and used in society. The real challenge then is to work out how to engage more people at the centre, as if anything we seem to be moving more and more towards red and blue corners with no room for compromise. I have literally no idea if/how this can be done, but its time for sensible people to lay off the insults and work out how to re-engage the huge number of people who feel left behind by the modern world.

Re: It's Donald Trump : Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:34 am  

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

Its hugely elitist IMO to write Trump supporters and 'Brexiteers' off as uneducated fools.

It's the only explanation & it saves time.

Re: It's Donald Trump : Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:50 am  

Legends and Icons wrote:

Trump can give it all the big'uns he wants he will be like most before him ...a puppet for Israel and the 1% and if he doesn't tow the line he end up just JFK did !!!

I would certainly advise anyone thinking of taking Donald out to look at the consequences, the most terrifying of which is President Pence. He makes Trump seem mild mannered

[Bullseye]

Re: It's Donald Trump : Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:09 am  

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

LeagueFan - its exactly that sort of patronising and insulting attitude that makes so many want to make a protest vote, and sod the consequences. Like telling all people who voted for Brexit that they are racist morons, the effect when they next vote may well be the exact opposite of what you want.

DaveO - when has it ever been the case that any but the smallest number of people 'educated themselves in the facts' of important issues? I'd suggest people are no lazier than they were, and if anything are probably bombarded by more information than ever before. The problem is the bias and factual distortion that goes on all over the place. When it came to Brexit, for example, why would you think any more than a tiny minority would have looked at all the facts in detail? The majority never does anything of the sort.

IMO its a lot to do with people (both right or left) ONLY soliciting information and views from sources that already tally with their world view. Any attempt to engage in discussion in even the most neutral of tones is met with outrage and insults, rather than attempts to persuade by reasoned argument. We used to see a lot of that on this very board and many of Corbyn's supporters show exactly the same total and utter disdain for anyone who thinks differently.

Its hugely elitist IMO to write Trump supporters and 'Brexiteers' off as uneducated fools. Or to expect people to educate themselves in some way totally at odds with the way information is now generated and used in society. The real challenge then is to work out how to engage more people at the centre, as if anything we seem to be moving more and more towards red and blue corners with no room for compromise. I have literally no idea if/how this can be done, but its time for sensible people to lay off the insults and work out how to re-engage the huge number of people who feel left behind by the modern world.

Bang on Brisbane. There was an article recently in the New York Times about how peoples “likes” on Facebook were ensuring that content was targeted at them and this applied to political articles. This serves to provide people with an increasingly biased supply of information that tends to reinforce views and in some cases provoke more extreme views. Users end up in their own “echo chamber” of like minded people and never see an alternative view. I think it serves to polarise views, especially when you see the comments under articles where users resemble an angry mob with pitchforks and flaming torches.

This happened during Brexit and during the US election. Suppliers of content will eventually become like the newspaper barons as it becomes the way to influence and reinforce the views of voters.

Unfortunately centrist views just don’t get the clicks. The real world is too complicated for people to engage with via social media as it can’t be condensed easily. Politicians have been shying away from the complicated nature of things for years (see the new Adam Curtis doc) in favour of a simplified view of the world that can be sold to the electorate more easily.

Where do we go from here? I don’t know. I heard someone today, think it was Gerd Wilders saying how right wing populism will win every time. The centre needs to communicate better in order to discredit these populist snake oil salesmen or he’ll be right.

Re: It's Donald Trump : Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:11 am  

7% of Americans have a passport. Around 70% of Americans have never travelled more than 30 miles from wher they were born. Most American TV stations don't show a news programme.
The terminally stupid voted and won, just like happened here.

But we have passports, travel and have news programmes. Whats your point?

[Bullseye]

Re: It's Donald Trump : Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:25 am  

People feel disenfranchised. Someone articulates their feelings and they get on board. Sometimes they’re so fed up they’re prepared to overlook aspects they might disagree with. The rest of the political establishment is out of touch and unable to connect with disenfranchised groups. It then has to play catch up to the populist who trades on being an “outsider” and the only one who understands them and is not an “elitist”. The establishment can’t win because no matter what the facts are they are committed to “change” and have invested hope in the populist.

Centrist politicians need to reconnect with the public and get out of their own echo chamber. Mainstream parties have been too busy to cosy up to lobbyists and have forgotten about who they’re meant to represent.

The media meanwhile love a controversy and flock around someone who “tells it like it is”. This then sets the agenda. Farage and the right have been very effective at doing that for the past 6 years. Centrist views just don’t get the clicks/airtime. There seems to be a vacuum at the moment in the centre. The loudmouths on the fringes are getting all the attention and nobody is properly able to hold them to account.