Re: Zero hours contracts : Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:43 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

Chuck into the mix the fact that back in the day every employer was expected to continue with your education in the form of in-job-training, often involving industry approved training courses and certification PAID FOR BY THE EMPLOYER.

So you did a period of a number of years as a trainee or even as an indentured apprentice, which for those too young to remember means that the employer could not get rid of you by sacking or other excuses unless the business failed in which case your trade or professional association would be obliged to find you another placement - nett result is that young people up to the age of 21 need not miss out on employment or recognised qualifications just because they did not choose an academic route.


The situation now ?

Have a look around any job offer for an 18 to 21 year old and see if it mentions whether the employer will continue to fund your education.

We've commented on plenty of this previously, and in addition to what you've rightly highlighted, you can add businesses whinging about school leavers not being trained in, say, customer relations, as has happened in recent years.

Re: Zero hours contracts : Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:53 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

£13 to £15K jobs are pretty much the norm for a 21 year old graduate now and the "degree necessary" qualification is just a default tagline on the advert for many companies, many of whom do not actually need degree educated workers but stick it on there thinking that it will filter out a couple of hundred applicants if they do.

Quick history lesson, but very relevant to that comment:

When I left school (pre thatcher!), only 7% of the population went on to get a degree - I'm one of the 93% .... Now I find myself out of work, and despite 30+ years experience in the water/wastewater sector, I can't get an interview because I can't get past the HR robots who insist you must have a degree or the application goes directly in the bin.

I then get the flip side from neighbours/friends kids who have degrees in subjects totally unrelated to engineering who are granted interviews for the very same posts, only to be rejected because, you've guessed it, they haven't got any relevant experience.

To say the country's gone mad is an understatement.

edit : back to thread topic - anyone slags off this government for zero hours contracts has been sleeping. They've been rife throughout engineering sector for well over a decade - when that lovely "butter wouldn't melt" President Blair was in office! Did he care? Too busy trying to get £1m notes into a salary designed to hold £100k....

Re: Zero hours contracts : Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:52 am  

BogBrushHead wrote:

... To say the country's gone mad is an understatement...

I first noticed it back in the early 1990s, when looking for jobs I was more than capable of doing, but seeing a massive expansion in jobs saying they were for graduates.

BogBrushHead wrote:

edit : back to thread topic - anyone slags off this government for zero hours contracts has been sleeping. They've been rife throughout engineering sector for well over a decade - when that lovely "butter wouldn't melt" President Blair was in office! Did he care? Too busy trying to get £1m notes into a salary designed to hold £100k....

I'm not sure anyone here would suggest they were a new phenomenon – simply one that is rapidly expanding.

And there are few (if any) here who would be likely to appear ardent supporters of Blair. In terms of general ideology, his government continued the work of its two predecessors, continuing with privatisation and deregulation, good neo-liberal that he is.

Re: Zero hours contracts : Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:41 pm  

BogBrushHead wrote:

Quick history lesson, but very relevant to that comment:

When I left school (pre thatcher!), only 7% of the population went on to get a degree - I'm one of the 93% .... Now I find myself out of work, and despite 30+ years experience in the water/wastewater sector, I can't get an interview because I can't get past the HR robots who insist you must have a degree or the application goes directly in the bin.

I then get the flip side from neighbours/friends kids who have degrees in subjects totally unrelated to engineering who are granted interviews for the very same posts, only to be rejected because, you've guessed it, they haven't got any relevant experience.

To say the country's gone mad is an understatement.

I totally sympathise with you, but I might be stating the obvious here - do you ever speak to the person who is handling the application or perhaps write to the person who would potentially be your boss but who may not even be aware that he is being fed low grade candidates because of his company's ridiculous criteria ?

Forgive me if I'm barking up the wrong tree but fortunately I've never had to apply for a job in those circumstances, but if I did I'd be in exactly the same situation as you, forty years of work experience, accomplished in electrical and comms installations, conversant with SQL and database applications, but with absolutely no qualifications whatsoever apart from the ability to swim 25 yards at 11 years of age without putting my feet on the bottom.

edit : back to thread topic - anyone slags off this government for zero hours contracts has been sleeping. They've been rife throughout engineering sector for well over a decade - when that lovely "butter wouldn't melt" President Blair was in office! Did he care? Too busy trying to get £1m notes into a salary designed to hold £100k....

I have a friend who is a QS in civil engineering and he too has been employed by the same contractor (a government department) on the same job and even mostly on the same site, but is virtually a sub-contractor in all but name, no hours, no holiday or sick pay - and he's been there for at least ten years to my knowledge.

Re: Zero hours contracts : Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:23 am  

bramleyrhino wrote:

The first part, I'm sorry to say, sounds oddly familiar.

That said, we are better than most companies in that regard. Our recruitment manager has a wealth of experience as a head hunter and can see past the degree to pick up on the more intangible things like you describe - attitude, work ethic, willingness, etc.

Shagability if their female?
Or is that just shallow old me?

Re: Zero hours contracts : Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:53 am  

WIZEB wrote:

Shagability if their female?
Or is that just shallow old me?

A wine bar I used to frequent once advertised for a "witty and urbane bar person". I wondered what wittyand urbane meant until I saw the successful candidate: "blonde with big tits"

Re: Zero hours contracts : Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:06 am  

cod'ead wrote:

A wine bar I used to frequent once advertised for a "witty and urbane bar person". I wondered what wittyand urbane meant until I saw the successful candidate: "blonde with big tits"

MY mate who had the Commercial for many years would not employ dogs.
I am eternally grateful as I managed to get a piece of several of them.

Re: Zero hours contracts : Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:21 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

Chuck into the mix the fact that back in the day every employer was expected to continue with your education in the form of in-job-training, often involving industry approved training courses and certification PAID FOR BY THE EMPLOYER.

So you did a period of a number of years as a trainee or even as an indentured apprentice, which for those too young to remember means that the employer could not get rid of you by sacking or other excuses unless the business failed in which case your trade or professional association would be obliged to find you another placement - nett result is that young people up to the age of 21 need not miss out on employment or recognised qualifications just because they did not choose an academic route.


The situation now ?

Have a look around any job offer for an 18 to 21 year old and see if it mentions whether the employer will continue to fund your education.

What were these industries? What has happened to them?

Re: Zero hours contracts : Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:54 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

I totally sympathise with you, but I might be stating the obvious here - do you ever speak to the person who is handling the application or perhaps write to the person who would potentially be your boss but who may not even be aware that he is being fed low grade candidates because of his company's ridiculous criteria ?
.

Most big companies in the engineering sector (the little ones with less than 20 employees have been forced out by legislation) now don't even handle their own recruitment these days, instead appointing outside agencies who liaise with corporate HR depts. Contacting the manager who will be your boss, which I always try to do as a matter of courtesy, has become futile.

One incident sums it up (and is sadly not an isolated one): I was head of a network analysis dept for 3 years at a water utility 12 yrs ago. I always hit/exceeded targets etc. During those 3 years, I trained up an engineering graduate to take over the post so I could move on, and moved to a job at an outside consultancy. Last year I applied for a job at that utility co. which 'skill matched' my CV - It turned out to be as an assistant to the bloke I had trained up, so he could finally move up the ladder! ..... Even with his help I couldn't get past the HR gestapo who kept insisting "The post requires a degree qualification" ..... No it doesn't !!! He was eventually given the choice of a Polish engineering graduate who spoke little English so couldn't write reports (essential to the job), a history grad, and someone with a maths degree, none of whom have any experience in the water/wastewater industry.

And people wonder why there's hosepipe bans & flooding in the same areas .... Global warming, my ar5e.

Re: Zero hours contracts : Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:56 pm  

BiffasBoys wrote:

What were these industries? What has happened to them?

How old are you, just so I know what your level of knowledge of British industry is/has been these past 40 years ?

The industries I speak of are still around by the way.