Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:09 pm  

It's ironic that Israel helped fund and develop Hamas as a counterweight to the mostly secular Fatah of Yasser Arafat.

How often has history shown big powers getting their arses bitten by the dog they previously fed?

[Kosh]

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:32 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

It's ironic that Israel helped fund and develop Hamas as a counterweight to the mostly secular Fatah of Yasser Arafat.

I never knew that. I don't think irony even begins to over it.

cod'ead wrote:

How often has history shown big powers getting their arses bitten by the dog they previously fed?

Oooh - I know this one. Is it 'every single time'?

[Kosh]

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:37 pm  

Mintball wrote:

What you're doing is pretending that this is some sort of even struggle and that those naughty Muzzies are being naughty by lobbing rockets randomly.

So you're saying that it's OK to kill civilians as long as you're the smaller side in an uneven struggle? Only I'm not sure that my moral compass - or International Law for that matter - makes that distinction.

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:17 pm  

Mintball wrote:

You're doing a damned fine imitation of an Israeli apologist.

No i am not, you just cant stand any criticism of your pet cause.

What you're doing is pretending that this is some sort of even struggle and that those naughty Muzzies are being naughty by lobbing rockets randomly.

No I’m not, I know im not because I really don’t care about how ‘even’ the struggle is, I find it quite moronic that people like you are keeping some kind of score, or that there should be some kind of equity in war.

Interestingly, you yet again ignore the question of just what you expect an imprisoned, bombed, shot at etc people to do.

Oh. That's right. Not lob a few rockets in frustration and anger. Just let themselves be bombed and persecuted and wait until these things stop. Because obviously the state of Israel fully intends to stop them and help create a two-state solution sometime, err, soon. Ish.

I don’t see why yet again you are trying to down play the attempted murder of people, of civilians. ‘lobbing a few rockets’ isn’t some kids vandalising the local park, this is explosive weaponry, designed and used to indiscriminately kill and maim, this isnt done out of frustration or anger, this isnt some husband coming home and kicking his wifes lovers head in, it is murder, and attempted murder. It is a person, taking the time and effort to launch rockets and kill indiscriminitely, being Isreali or Palestinian doesnt make that action any better of worse.
I cant tell whether you do this because you are an actual mental who hates jews/Israelis or you have the rather patronising viewpoint that we should Palestinians should be held to a lower expectation.

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:52 pm  

Kosh wrote:

So you're saying that it's OK to kill civilians as long as you're the smaller side in an uneven struggle? Only I'm not sure that my moral compass - or International Law for that matter - makes that distinction.

No. I'm saying that you're playing at moral equivalence – and that you still have not bothered to suggest just what you imagine those Palestinians should do in your nice, clean, imaginary world where they don't lob rockets in frustration and anger.

It's a redundant exercise in pleasantries to pretend that you can finger wag at both sides equally, when the situation is utterly unequal, and when you don't appear to have any suggestion of how to change that situation.

So I repeat again: in order to avoid your condemnation, precisely what do you think the Palestinians should do?

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:59 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

No i am not, you just cant stand any criticism of your pet cause.

No I’m not, I know im not because I really don’t care about how ‘even’ the struggle is, I find it quite moronic that people like you are keeping some kind of score, or that there should be some kind of equity in war.

I don’t see why yet again you are trying to down play the attempted murder of people, of civilians. ‘lobbing a few rockets’ isn’t some kids vandalising the local park, this is explosive weaponry, designed and used to indiscriminately kill and maim, this isnt done out of frustration or anger, this isnt some husband coming home and kicking his wifes lovers head in, it is murder, and attempted murder. It is a person, taking the time and effort to launch rockets and kill indiscriminitely, being Isreali or Palestinian doesnt make that action any better of worse.
I cant tell whether you do this because you are an actual mental who hates jews/Israelis or you have the rather patronising viewpoint that we should Palestinians should be held to a lower expectation.

Let's face it, when youngsters do throw stones, they get shot.

Not frustration? Well obviously. After all, they're not effectively in a prison, being fired on while there. They shouldn't remotely respond to the aggressor in this situation. Of course not.

I keep looking for your ideas on just what the Palestinians should do.

I haven't spotted any yet.

Makes the rhetoric easier for you, I suppose.

And how very unoriginal: 'Oh, oh look – you're probably an anti-semite!'

Do you also accuse people like Gideon Levy, Shlomo Sand and Ralph Schoenman of being 'self-hating Jews'? Along with the likes of B'Tselem and Independent Jewish Voice and many more.

And you call me "moronic".

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:01 pm  

rover49 wrote:

If by magic a two state solution happened tomorrow and Israel conceded to Palestinian demands, do you think Hamas would stop attacks on Israel. I personally doubt it would make one iota of difference, they would still attack regularly until their aim of total annihilation was achieved.

As opposed to all the evidence that the state of Israel has ever wanted anything less than the removal of all Palestinians?

Really?

What evidence is there that the state of Israel has ever been sincere or serious about a long-lasting peace that involved a two-state solution? Seriously – what evidence is there?

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:10 pm  

Maybe the Palestinians have got off lightly?

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:16 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Let's face it, when youngsters do throw stones, they get shot.

Then dont throw stones, whats the worst thing that happens there? Stones are no longer thrown? big f@cking whoop.

Not frustration? Well obviously. After all, they're not effectively in a prison, being fired on while there. They shouldn't remotely respond to the aggressor in this situation. Of course not.

The aggressor isn’t the kids in schools hit by rockets, they aren’t the families in their houses hit by rockets, they aren’t civilians on buses which are bombed, they aren’t the young couples having dinner in restaurants in Tel Aviv The civilians in Israel are no more ‘the aggressors’ when going about their daily business, than the civilians of Palestine are ‘terrorists’ whilst going about theirs.

I keep looking for your ideas on just what the Palestinians should do.

I haven't spotted any yet.

Not murder people. Im not asking for the moon on a stick here sweetheart, im not asking for them to be some kind of angels, im not mistaking the Palestinians for a rag-tag bunch of Ned Flanders types, simply asking that they don’t murder people, don’t glorify murdering people, and don’t whine when the people they are trying to murder do it better than them. Incompetance isnt moral mitigation.

Makes the rhetoric easier for you, I suppose.

And how very unoriginal: 'Oh, oh look – you're probably an anti-semite!'

Your double standards do seem to indicate that, as I said, i could be wrong, you could see the Palestinians as lesser people with a lesser standard to live up to, either way, it is stupid to apply a double standard.

Do you also accuse people like Gideon Levy, Shlomo Sand and Ralph Schoenman of being 'self-hating Jews'? Along with the likes of B'Tselem and Independent Jewish Voice and many more.

Why? Do they say that the murder of Jews is acceptable?

And you call me "moronic".

If the yarmulke fits..........

Re: Lest we forget : Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:39 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Then dont throw stones, whats the worst thing that happens there? Stones are no longer thrown? big f@cking whoop...

Because you can't even suggest a tiny thing that they should do to change the situation, can you? Except 'don't do naughty' things, children. Let the big bully keep on kicking you – but don't dare even make a gesture back.'

Still not even an attempt to explain just what you'd have the Palestinians do while they're being murdered in the prison that the state of Israel is keeping them in. As for this:

"... and don’t whine when the people they are trying to murder do it better than them."

This is precisely the f**king point, you apologist for a neo-fascist regime that is aiming at ethnic cleansing. They didn't f**king start it, and the people that did have no intention in stopping until they're wiped out or driven out of their homes.

If the coalscuttle helmet fits, chucky wucky ...