Re: What now for the UK? : Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:17 am  

cod'ead wrote:

World of Redboy wrote:

The last thing this country ever needs again is a labour government,

Yeah because who needs things like sex-discrimination legislation, race-discrimination legislation, disability-discrimination legislation, minimum wage, the NHS, the social welfare system and all that other guff eh?

We really need huge inefficient public sector, massive borrowings, higher taxation, pension decimation, no gold, higher disability claimers, greater loss of power to Europe etc etc.

You are in complete denial about the root cause of the deficit - the bankers only added to what was a mountain of debt already accumulated by Brown/Balls etc.

Re: What now for the UK? : Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:20 am  

Mintball wrote:

CORNISH wrote:

... you re not wrong there...

So in the last year or so, you've have fared better with, say, no free health care, yes?

CORNISH wrote:

however cameron has gone down in my estimation after playing a blinder with the veto last week and then coming out with all this god/religion crap yesterday.
no need to mix politics and make believe.

I'd agree – except to say that I'm less offended by that than our getting involved in a civil war in Africa and spending yet more billions bombing people. Perhaps you liked that?

but we all get free health care who ever is in charge. nothing has changed since tories got in. i still have my regular hospital check ups and scans(and will continue to do so for at least the next 2 years) and blood tests and drugs etc. i havent had to wait any longer, or my treatment has been inferior under the tories.so that disproves a lot of pro labour/anti tory propaganda re the NHS.

as regards the war, no im not in favour but theres nowt i can do about that or TBH can any of us.if labour had have been in power we would still have been involved in that war or any future conflicts coming our way.
labour would have done very little different to what the tories are doing now(they would have had to cut down on their ridiculous spending sprees with money we just dont have) if they had won the last election.
its just convenient to slag off the govt as it suits a certain agenda from the majority who post in the sin bin. there certainly would have been less criticism of labour doing what the cons are doing.

Re: What now for the UK? : Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:47 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

... You are in complete denial about the root cause of the deficit - the bankers only added to what was a mountain of debt already accumulated by Brown/Balls etc.

Oh dear, oh dear.

So - and I'll write this slowly to help you - do you really believe that:

1) the financial crisis that affected other parts of the world was completely unconnected to that in the UK and it's just a coincidence that they happened at the same time;

2) the global financial crisis was caused by events in the UK?

Or is your comprehension of this a tad like your belief that I said you shouldn't buy bananas, and your assertion that careers have whopping big expense accounts etc?

The plain fact is that the deficit was around the same as in John Major's time before the financial crash.

I think you're in "complete denial" about just what a plonker you've been making of yourself. At least you old occasionally acknowledge when you've been shown to be totally wrong.

Re: What now for the UK? : Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:03 am  

CORNISH wrote:

but we all get free health care who ever is in charge...

Do you think that the Conservatives would have created the NHS in the first place? Indeed, they're currently in the process of trying to privatise it – Cameron having lied about 'no more top-down reorganisations of the NHS'.

One could also note what was done to dental and ophthalmic care – and to prescription costs. And the specific effect of privatisation on, say, rates of MRSA and c-diff.

CORNISH wrote:

... so that disproves a lot of pro labour/anti tory propaganda re the NHS...

Do you remember all those stories about old people dying on a trolley in a hospital corridor? They weren't just in left-wing papers, but were widespread before 1997.

Have such stories been rife since then? There are plenty of parts of the media that would have enjoyed printing them. Why do you think that might be?

Waiting times are on the increase. Bed blocking is increasing again too.

CORNISH wrote:

... its just convenient to slag off the govt as it suits a certain agenda from the majority who post in the sin bin. there certainly would have been less criticism of labour doing what the cons are doing.

I've personally never been shy of condemning Labour – not least for continuing the same basic economic policies that were put in place by the government of Margaret Thatcher and for Blair's wars. I don't remember even Blair having the gall to govern by u-turn and lies quite so obviously and so quickly – at least not until the notorious 45 minutes claim that enabled him to go to war with his best conservative/right wing and religious buddy, backed by his other great conservative/right wing and Bible-publishing mate.

But back to that economic continuation – I know it displeases Conservatives to think that what happened under Labour was essentially a continuation of the same economic ideology as the Conservative governments of Margaret Thatcher had put in place, but that is a fact.

Continued privatisation and deregulation are not hallmarks of any left-wing economic philosophy.

And that continues – this government has already tried to sell off the blood service and, fortunately, been knocked back by substantial campaigning work. Just imagine – you'd could have donated your blood for free and someone else could have made a profit out of it.

Re: What now for the UK? : Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:42 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Sal Paradise wrote:

... You are in complete denial about the root cause of the deficit - the bankers only added to what was a mountain of debt already accumulated by Brown/Balls etc.

Oh dear, oh dear.

So - and I'll write this slowly to help you - do you really believe that:

1) the financial crisis that affected other parts of the world was completely unconnected to that in the UK and it's just a coincidence that they happened at the same time;

2) the global financial crisis was caused by events in the UK?

Or is your comprehension of this a tad like your belief that I said you shouldn't buy bananas, and your assertion that careers have whopping big expense accounts etc?

The plain fact is that the deficit was around the same as in John Major's time before the financial crash.

I think you're in "complete denial" about just what a plonker you've been making of yourself. At least you old occasionally acknowledge when you've been shown to be totally wrong.

Are you for real? maybe all the time worry about cleaners and the MRSA epidemic or companies taking pension holidays - has clouded your tiny and I mean tiny!!

To answer you points
1. Are you seriously suggesting that the deficit was under control before the bankers blew it wide open?
2. Unlike under Major - Labour were experiencing unprecedented tax revenues and still the deficit was increasing at an alarming rate.
3. Now one of your favourites - please show me where I have posted that careers have big expenses accounts, I have a had a reasonable career and I have never had a big expense account?
4. Do you deny that claims for incapacity benefit increased under the last Labour government to levels previous thought impossible - during a time of record spending on the NHS and a significant decrease in manual labour in the work place and increased H&S legalisation?
5. Was it a figment of my imagination but did Brown not sell off a big portion of the gold reserves at a point when gold was at its cheapest?
6. On the bananas - I demonstrated the volumes of small independent retailers still selling these basic ingredients, the fact that most choose to use the supermarket is not because of availability - it must be all the mind bending that you claim supermarkets subject us all too - and you claim I am "Plonker" kettle and pot!!

I suggest you need to take a chill pill - you won't need a big one for that tiny mind of yours.

Re: What now for the UK? : Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:07 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Are you for real? maybe all the time worry about cleaners and the MRSA epidemic or companies taking pension holidays - has clouded your tiny and I mean tiny!!...

My "tiny" what?

Sal Paradise wrote:

To answer you points
1. Are you seriously suggesting that the deficit was under control before the bankers blew it wide open?

You haven't answered the questions I asked.

To repeat: do you believe that either the global financial crisis was completely unconnected to that in the UK and a coincidence – or that Brown etc al caused that too?

Come on – it's not a difficult question to answer.

Sal Paradise wrote:

2. Unlike under Major - Labour were experiencing unprecedented tax revenues and still the deficit was increasing at an alarming rate...

No. It. Was. Not.

Sal Paradise wrote:

... 3. Now one of your favourites - please show me where I have posted that careers have big expenses accounts, I have a had a reasonable career and I have never had a big expense account?

Indeed, I doubt "careers" claim any expenses at all. Neither do carers – but that didn't stop that little fantasy of yours, did it? And I don't recall you acknowledging that you were incorrect on that score, in spite of being shown to be absolutely wrong.

But that's part of the point – you never do acknowledge being shown to be wrong.

Sal Paradise wrote:

4. Do you deny that claims for incapacity benefit increased under the last Labour government to levels previous thought impossible - during a time of record spending on the NHS and a significant decrease in manual labour in the work place and increased H&S legalisation?

The word is 'legislation'. And you claim to be a great intellect!

But since you're so much better than those of who don't live in "the real world" (©
sal paradise), perhaps you can stop the knee-jerk fantasy games and provide evidence for these assertions and claims.

IIRC – and I'll have to look for the charts and stats – the numbers claiming disability benefit fell during Labour's time in office (or certainly didn't rise). That's in the "real world", chucky boy – not in your rabid, tabloid fantasy world.

Health and safety is not just about workplaces. And accidents happen – see the relevant thread – that could have been avoided if health and safety regulations had been avoided.

Good grief – even a government minister admitted, a few weeks ago, that there is no problem with H&S legislation itself, but with the fear of litigation sending people to hide behind H&S. And then the knee-jerk brigade like you, who simply prefer to accept that it's somehow at the root of 'Broken Britain', without actually being able to explain what on Earth you even mean by that.

Sal Paradise wrote:

... 5. Was it a figment of my imagination but did Brown not sell off a big portion of the gold reserves at a point when gold was at its cheapest?

I haven't said he didn't – you're now into the realms of inventing red herrings in terms of this debate. However, I look forward to your condemnation of Thatcher and co for using the revenues from North Sea gas to deindustrialise.

Sal Paradise wrote:

6. On the bananas - I demonstrated the volumes of small independent retailers still selling these basic ingredients, the fact that most choose to use the supermarket is not because of availability - it must be all the mind bending that you claim supermarkets subject us all too - and you claim I am "Plonker" kettle and pot!!

You leapt in to a discussion accusing me of claiming that people should not buy bananas, when I had written absolutely nothing of the sort. And this from someone who flings around accusations against other posters that they can't read properly.

Sal Paradise wrote:

I suggest you need to take a chill pill - you won't need a big one for that tiny mind of yours.

Thanks for another contribution that adds something intelligent to the debate. No, really.

Re: What now for the UK? : Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:27 pm  

Cameron now has a six point lead.

Take it!!

Re: What now for the UK? : Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:22 pm  

Ajw71 wrote:

Cameron now has a six point lead.

...in ???

[DaveO]

Re: What now for the UK? : Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:45 pm  

Ajw71 wrote:

Cameron now has a six point lead.

Take it!!

And Labour retained a seat in a by-election with an 8% swing from Conservative to Labour after DC used the veto. A seat which had been won by the Tories in the late 80's general elections as well so not one that had been Labour for ever either.

Re: What now for the UK? : Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:54 pm  

You fail to point out that only 30% of potential voters voted and that a large porportion of that quantity were postal votes which had to be in before DC's Euro actions last week.

So claiming an overall swing of 8.5% from Tories to Labour is not a true reflection of the nation as a whole.

Not my words, but Radio 5 Live's Chief Political Commentator John Pienaar's.

You also fail to point out that despite the scaremongers on here, the majority of the UK public agree with Cameron.

I know it really really hurts you extreme left, Euro lovers on here. I know it hurts bad, but I'm sorry you are wrong.

It's time you moved on.