Re: Lest we forget : Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:47 am  

JACK DETH wrote:

Sad but true, a white life is and has always been more precious.

There's an analysis that the West's support for the creation of a state of Israel was born out of anti-semitism itself. In the wake of WWII, very few Jewish refugees were offered homes in countries outside of Germany, while greater numbers of non-Jewish refugees were offered more homes.

Indeed, looking back further to the Balfour Declaration, Balfour himself, only a couple of years before that, had been coming out with anti-semitic comments in Parliament, so it seems entirely possible that support for a Zionist state itself emerged from anti-semitism. A sort of 'get rid of them by giving them a state of Israel', in other words.

In all that, the Arab population came even lower down the scale of humanity.

Re: Lest we forget : Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:55 pm  

Mintball wrote:

There's an analysis that the West's support for the creation of a state of Israel was born out of anti-semitism itself. In the wake of WWII, very few Jewish refugees were offered homes in countries outside of Germany, while greater numbers of non-Jewish refugees were offered more homes.

Indeed, looking back further to the Balfour Declaration, Balfour himself, only a couple of years before that, had been coming out with anti-semitic comments in Parliament, so it seems entirely possible that support for a Zionist state itself emerged from anti-semitism. A sort of 'get rid of them by giving them a state of Israel', in other words.

In all that, the Arab population came even lower down the scale of humanity.

There are plenty of Christian Zionists around, many of whom fervently believe that the second coming of the Messiah will occur when the Jews again populate Palestine.
They read it in The Book of Revelations and therefore, to them, it MUST be true, so the Palestinians must suffer to allow that to come about ... and never mind all that stuff that Jesus said about forgiveness, loving thy neighbour and suchlike ... so much easier to stick with mumbo jumbo magic than actually to practice the basics of Christianity.
Conscience seems to be trumped by fortune-telling.

Re: Lest we forget : Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:27 pm  

Mintball wrote:

There's an analysis that the West's support for the creation of a state of Israel was born out of anti-semitism itself. In the wake of WWII, very few Jewish refugees were offered homes in countries outside of Germany, while greater numbers of non-Jewish refugees were offered more homes.

Indeed, looking back further to the Balfour Declaration, Balfour himself, only a couple of years before that, had been coming out with anti-semitic comments in Parliament, so it seems entirely possible that support for a Zionist state itself emerged from anti-semitism. A sort of 'get rid of them by giving them a state of Israel', in other words.

In all that, the Arab population came even lower down the scale of humanity.

Yes, I have read some POV on the very same.

Re: Lest we forget : Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:01 pm  

It's worth mentioning also that the rise of the radical Christian fundamentalist groups in America began very shortly after the Jewish occupation of Palestine. It's fair to say these groups have enjoyed a kind of love-hate relationship with the Jews for many years - but for now they are regarded as allies.

Not that any relationship is likely to last. If the fundamentalists ever gained full control in America you can bet they'd quickly make short work of the Jews, the Catholics, the Muslims, the Jehovah's Witnesses, liberal Christians (who are completely ignored in America - despite the fact that they form a significant part of the church-going public), progressives, Godless socialists etc.

Re: Lest we forget : Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:29 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

It's worth mentioning also that the rise of the radical Christian fundamentalist groups in America began very shortly after the Jewish occupation of Palestine. It's fair to say these groups have enjoyed a kind of love-hate relationship with the Jews for many years - but for now they are regarded as allies.

Not that any relationship is likely to last. If the fundamentalists ever gained full control in America you can bet they'd quickly make short work of the Jews, the Catholics, the Muslims, the Jehovah's Witnesses, liberal Christians (who are completely ignored in America - despite the fact that they form a significant part of the church-going public), progressives, Godless socialists etc.

Having spent quite a bit of time living with what would be described as a liberal, christian family in Oregon, I came to the conclusion that church attendance and saying grace before each meal had little to do with religion and was more about "keeping up appearances"

Re: Lest we forget : Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:44 am  

cod'ead wrote:

Having spent quite a bit of time living with what would be described as a liberal, christian family in Oregon, I came to the conclusion that church attendance and saying grace before each meal had little to do with religion and was more about "keeping up appearances"

Well, it's a group that should be a major force in American politics. It certainly outnumbers the bible-thumping fire-and-brimstone contingent by a considerable margin. Unfortunately, given the diversified and de-centralized nature of the Christian church in America the Liberal Left has found it difficult to organise against the seemingly ever-growing power of the fundamentalist movement.

Part of the problem is the colossal sums of money the fundamentalists have at their disposal. I think it's no co-incidence that they have the overwhelming support of big business. I mean, you could write several books on the pernicious relationship that far right christian groups and capitalist elites have shared not just in America but since the dawn of time.

Take the Dominionist movement for instance. It bears a striking resemblance to the fascist groups that existed in Italy. Also known as "Christian Reconstructionists", they have perverted, distorted and manipulated the message preached in the Bible - fusing the language and iconography of the church with right wing corporate interests. Contrary to the traditional stance taken by christian groups in America (including up to the likes of Billy Graham), their goal is to enter the political arena and bring about a new America based upon theological tenets most christians would be shocked by.

Much is made of the "barbarous" nature of fundamentalist Muslims such as the Taliban, but if these extremists ever gained power it would be very difficult to differentiate the two faiths. So, take the Dominionists for example, they espouse a "Cult of Masculinity" within the various mega-churches elevating the male to a position where he may not be questioned. Children are to obey - period.

One of their latest schemes is to "Certify" people to conduct on-the-spot conversions. Overcome the fear of mortality and grief - with a 100% certainty that they will go to heaven (reminiscent of Hezbollah).

In California the radical Dominionists are campaigning fiercely to create a christian state and have taken over almost all of the traditional christian radio stations, ruthlessly kicking out existing members.

I was surprised to discover that Wal-Mart has now taken to bringing in Dominionist preachers in order to mollify the growing number of employees dissatisfied with the company. "Can't afford medical care? It doesn't matter because God takes care of his own." Many of America's lowest paid are some of its most vulnerable people and they are cynically targeted by the Dominionists. Once you are sucked in your leisure time is gone. Your community no longer exists. You are taught to think and accept in an appropriate manner.

But the people at the top of these far right groups are some of the most rotten - even unhinged charlatans.

So you have the likes of Pat Robertson, surrounded by Glock-toting body-guards. Jets. A rock star status. And when he's not doing bestowing his luminiferous message upon the 30-odd million followers of the God channel he's taking money from people who live on the fringes of American society and investing it in the weapons-for-diamonds trade in Sierra Leone.

I suppose the most extreme example of the far Christian Right's hand-and-glove relationship with corporate America is when Robertson, speaking live during his syndicated "700 Club", bemoaned Hugo Chavez's decision to boot out the major oil companies and stated "We have the ability to take him out and we should exercise that ability". It's interesting to note that Robertson was only mildly censured for that comment. But can you imagine the furore that would have been kicked up had someone like Amy Goodman called for the assassination of King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia?

Apart from the money and resources I think where the Christian Left has failed has been in completely misunderstanding the pathology of the fundamentalist movement. So, up until very recently they have (to their credit) made every effort to embrace them and engage in dialogue thinking they can be reasoned with or reformed. But when you're talking about the likes of Pat Robertson, Gerry Falwell etc. there is no negotiation. They view any kind of concession, no matter how small, as an abomination.

Non-conformists have only two options - convert or be exterminated. There's the obsession with "Rapture" (which isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible). These are movements based on fear with a lust for violence. Again, it's no co-incidence that they go out of their way to court the armed services and the police. I read recently that there is growing concern among senior military commanders at the Pentagon over the spread of fundamentalist Christianity within the various armed services - and the power that this body exerts (certainly with respect to promotion). Eric Prince, the founder of the world's biggest mercenary army Academi (formerly the notorious Blackwater) is as far to the right of the political spectrum as you can go and has openly admitted his vehement opposition to Islam. Now, you could say the targeting of these specific groups is nothing more than co-incidence. Or you could say the fundamentalists are moving their pawns across the board in part of a long game to assume power should some calamity befall the nation and the state is unable to perform its function.

Insofar as the Jews are concerned - they are currently tolerated because their occupation of Palestine and Jerusalem in particular is one step further toward Armageddon.. But let's be under no illusions here - these are radically anti-Semitic groups. When Armageddon comes the Jews will be destroyed along with all the other non-believes and ONLY the "chosen few" will inherit God's eternal love.

Re: Lest we forget : Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:14 am  

El Barbudo wrote:

There are plenty of Christian Zionists around ...

Indeed. As I think I've mentioned before, a previous member of these forums was one such individual. He was also a BNP member/supporter.

Which might say something.

Re: Lest we forget : Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:42 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Indeed. As I think I've mentioned before, a previous member of these forums was one such individual. He was also a BNP member/supporter.

Which might say something.

And wanted to set up the Perth WA branch of said party too...

Re: Lest we forget : Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:48 pm  

Big Graeme wrote:

And wanted to set up the Perth WA branch of said party too...

Indeed.

Re: Lest we forget : Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:47 pm  

Big Graeme wrote:

And wanted to set up the Perth WA branch of said party too...

That just about sums them up, the irony probably flew straight over his head.