Re: British Women fattest in europe : Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:50 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

We might not 'need' to use gyms to keep fit, but some people actually prefer to...

I wouldn't dispute this. But we do have a gym/exercise culture where we didn't have one only around 30-40 years ago.

Rock God X wrote:

... And, as for paying a fortune, I pay £15 a month for my (off peak) gym membership - less than half of what most people spend on a single night out, or about the cost of a takeaway meal. Hardly a fortune, and money well spent if it does the job...

There are, though problems with a lot of gyms demanding a year's money up front.

Rock God X wrote:

... Exercise, in whatever form, should be a habit we all get into (unless we're physically incapable)...

I walk a lot. Indeed, that's pretty much what I was referring to in terms of the French example – they walk more than us in the course of everyday life, but don't have the same level of gym use etc.

Rock God X wrote:

... This isn't mainstream advice now. It's many years out of date, in fact...

I'm an old person, remember!

It was absolutely mainstream advice when I was in my teens and twenties – a period that has had a massive impact subsequently. Once you get trapped in what I described, it is a circle.

And indeed, most of the women that I can think have had similar experiences would be in the same age bracket as myself. But the point stands: that it's too simple (IMO) to say that everyone 'knows' what the solutions are.

Rock God X wrote:

... Most knowledgeable people will now tell you to create a small calorie deficit from a combination of diet and exercise ...

I honestly don't know what my calorie intake is these days. So I wouldn't know what deficit I have (or not). I only know, on the basis of falling clothes sizes over several years (and comments from people who don't see me often) that I'm now losing weight slowly, where for years I'd lose – and then put more on.

Rock God X wrote:

... Then your GP is an idiot...

Not my GP for a couple of decades plus.

Rock God X wrote:

... I have had a similar experience with a practice nurse. I have a BMI of around 27, and she told me I needed to lose weight. When I pointed out that my bodyfat was only around 11%, she just mumbled something about 'still needing to shed a few pounds', then promptly changed the subject. But because some people are still giving out poor/out of date advice, doesn't mean that it's 'mainstream advice'...

When you see what's being suggested in some media, in terms of totally boners 'advice' (and I'd add, diets such as that which Kelloggs are allowed to promote in TV advertising, of two bowls of Special K a day and one 'ordinary' meal), then I think that, for many people, the advice is confused and confusing.

And basic ideas of calorie reduction remain the core of most people's dieting – certainly most women's dieting – together with a demonisation of natural fats.

Rock God X wrote:

... I don't think we have a 'mass gym culture'. Of all the people I know, I can think of only one or two who use a gym on a regular basis. I'd imagine that a very small percentage of the overall population are regular gym goers. That said, the gym works for many people and I think it's often unfairly derided as somehow being a 'false' way of getting fit.

As mentioned before, I do think we have a far. far larger gym/organised exercise culture than at any time previously. Yet this coincides with rising obesity.

Re: British Women fattest in europe : Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:47 pm  

Mintball wrote:

I wouldn't dispute this. But we do have a gym/exercise culture where we didn't have one only around 30-40 years ago.

That, in my view, can only be a good thing. The more people take regular exercise, the better.

Mintball wrote:

There are, though problems with a lot of gyms demanding a year's money up front.

I've worked in the industry for several years and been a consumer for several more years. I can honestly say it's not a problem I've ever encountered. Maybe it's a London thing. That said, many gyms do expect you to commit to them for a minimum of a year, but I suppose they're no worse than mobile phone companies, broadband suppliers etc for that.

Mintball wrote:

I walk a lot. Indeed, that's pretty much what I was referring to in terms of the French example – they walk more than us in the course of everyday life, but don't have the same level of gym use etc.

Fair enough. Whatever floats your boat. But I don't think the French way is somehow 'better' as you are (I think) implying. What's important is whether or not people take exercise - not whether they do it in a gym or not.

As an aside, though, the benefits of resistance training are numerous (not least for increasing bone density - a very good idea for women of your age!) and it could be argued that weight training is best/most safely performed in a gym environment.

Mintball wrote:

I'm an old person, remember!

It was absolutely mainstream advice when I was in my teens and twenties – a period that has had a massive impact subsequently. Once you get trapped in what I described, it is a circle.

And indeed, most of the women that I can think have had similar experiences would be in the same age bracket as myself. But the point stands: that it's too simple (IMO) to say that everyone 'knows' what the solutions are.

Most overweight people are overweight because they eat too much and exercise too little. They know they need to eat less and exercise more, but it's hard to make these changes, so they put it off. Sure, they might not know by how much they should reduce their calorie intake, or what particular exercises to do, but we both know that it wouldn't be too hard for them to find out. There's a lot of really bad advice kicking about these days, but finding good advice isn't as hard as it's made out to be sometimes.

I appreciate there'll always be people who find it hard to lose weight no matter what they do, but these people are far from the norm. For most people, it really is a simple equation. I'm not saying it's easy for anyone - it's bloody hard - but it is quite simple. I mean, it's not as if the overwhelming majority of overweight people are eating sensible diets and exercising regularly, but just can't seem to shift the weight.

Mintball wrote:

I honestly don't know what my calorie intake is these days. So I wouldn't know what deficit I have (or not). I only know, on the basis of falling clothes sizes over several years (and comments from people who don't see me often) that I'm now losing weight slowly, where for years I'd lose – and then put more on.

Then I'd guess you do have a small deficit. Which is good if you want to lose a few pounds and keep it off.

Mintball wrote:

Not my GP for a couple of decades plus.

Good job!

Mintball wrote:

When you see what's being suggested in some media, in terms of totally boners 'advice' (and I'd add, diets such as that which Kelloggs are allowed to promote in TV advertising, of two bowls of Special K a day and one 'ordinary' meal), then I think that, for many people, the advice is confused and confusing.

To start with - ha ha - you said 'boners'.

I'd add to Kellogs and the like organisations like Weight Watchers and Slimming World. They promote traditional dieting because they know most people will end up putting the weight back on and they'll get return business. So, yes, I'd agree that the advice can be confusing, but I think a lot of people use diets like that because they want a 'quick fix'.

"Drop two dress sizes in a week, you say? I'll have some of that."

My sister yo-yo diets like crazy using Weight Watchers. Every time I challenge her on it, she says, "it works for me." I can't get through to her that if it worked, she wouldn't have to keep going back. But I don't think it's because she doesn't understand that deep down, it's that she thinks it doesn't matter if she puts weight on, because she can just go back to WW and lose it again with their incredible crash diet stupidity.

Mintball wrote:

And basic ideas of calorie reduction remain the core of most people's dieting – certainly most women's dieting – together with a demonisation of natural fats.

Calorie reduction should be at the core of weight loss programmes - it has to be (whether from diet or exercise). What shouldn't be happening is the very severe calorie restriction that occurs and the less than healthy food these places promote. Weight Watchers cherry bakewells? WTF?

Mintball wrote:

As mentioned before, I do think we have a far. far larger gym/organised exercise culture than at any time previously. Yet this coincides with rising obesity.

I'm not sure I like the insinuation here. Surely you can't be suggesting that gyms and organised exercise are somehow contributing to rising obesity rates? Obesity is rising because we are increasingly sedentary and eat much more junk/processed food than at any time before. And I'd say that most of the people in gyms are not obese or overweight (though some are).

Re: British Women fattest in europe : Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:58 pm  

Mintball wrote:

...
As mentioned before, I do think we have a far. far larger gym/organised exercise culture than at any time previously. Yet this coincides with rising obesity.

I'm not sure what point there is in that. Sure, lots of people regularly go to the gym, routinely go jogging etc. but I'd be willing to bet a lot that those who genuinely are regular exercisers of that committed sort do not suffer from rising obesity.

OTOH we do have millions of people not working, and coupled with the explosion of online and social networks, TV channels in particular reality TV shows taking up many hours time each and every day, games consoles, smartphones etc., a huge range of reasons not to bother getting off your arrse and doing anything or going anywhere. Even when you're hungry, there's a hundred fat food sorry fast food outlets that will deliver your curry or pizza to your door so you don't even have to go out for that. Hell, you can even do all your shopping online, if you want.

I really don't think you have to look very far at all for the lifestyle choices that feed rising obesity. It seems straightforward to me.

Re: British Women fattest in europe : Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:59 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

... Calorie reduction should be at the core of weight loss programmes - it has to be (whether from diet or exercise). What shouldn't be happening is the very severe calorie restriction that occurs and the less than healthy food these places promote. Weight Watchers cherry bakewells? WTF?...

Spot on.
However, most people have a weakness and the "eat what you like and still lose weight" idea catches tens of thousands every time someone comes up with a new "diet".

But Mintball has a point too, which I think is that diet should not be faddy ... a balanced diet including some appetite-sating saturated fat is preferable to "Only carbs and protein".

Re: British Women fattest in europe : Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:07 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

Spot on.
However, most people have a weakness and the "eat what you like and still lose weight" idea catches tens of thousands every time someone comes up with a new "diet".

To add to that, 'low fat' alternatives of regular foods are a massive rip off. Nine times out of ten, they replace the fat that they've stripped away with sugar or artificial additives. How is that better?

El Barbudo wrote:

But Mintball has a point too, which I think is that diet should not be faddy ... a balanced diet including some appetite-sating saturated fat is preferable to "Only carbs and protein".

I wouldn't argue with that. In fact, I didn't! Fats are extremely important for things like nervous system function, vitamin absorption etc, as well as helping you to feel full.

Re: British Women fattest in europe : Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:10 pm  

Speaking personally, I'm a fat bastad. I have no idea what I weigh but I now have a 38" waist when it wasn't that long ago I had a 32" waist. When I was refereeing, I exercised regularly, running approximately 25 miles per week, along with local and regional training sessions. I was careful about what I ate: no cooked in sauces, avoiding most dairy products and simple carbs.

As soon as I finished refereeing, I started becoming the fat, lazy, happy fooker that I am today. I could eat good butter by the handfull and often do. I love bread, so if I can't find a decent baker, I bake my own, it's not difficult or really time-consuming. I drink too but only to excess.

Basically I've put it in, I want some out now.

Re: British Women fattest in europe : Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:40 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

Speaking personally, I'm a fat bastad. I have no idea what I weigh but I now have a 38" waist when it wasn't that long ago I had a 32" waist. When I was refereeing, I exercised regularly, running approximately 25 miles per week, along with local and regional training sessions. I was careful about what I ate: no cooked in sauces, avoiding most dairy products and simple carbs.

As soon as I finished refereeing, I started becoming the fat, lazy, happy fooker that I am today. I could eat good butter by the handfull and often do. I love bread, so if I can't find a decent baker, I bake my own, it's not difficult or really time-consuming. I drink too but only to excess.

Basically I've put it in, I want some out now.

Indeed. I don't see the problem with obesity tbh (in adults anyway, childhood obesity is a whole other arguement). There is tonnes of information out there and I'm sure the majority of fat people know the risks associated with being overweight, so if they are happy to be, as you put it, a fat nice bloke, then who is anyone to tell them to change?

Re: British Women fattest in europe : Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:59 pm  

I went to the gym for about 2 years somewhere between 2008 and 2011 and although i looked a little trimmer i didn't lose much weight, now i have psoriasis and i was told i could shift it with a better diet, i (for a time) cut out sugar, yeast and wheat from my diet and only ate organic and WOW i dropped 3 stone and felt better for it, i almost completely cleared bar for a bit on my left leg my psoriasis and felt more alert and was able to think so clearly.

I'm now a little overweight, 6ft 1 and 15.5 stone and that's because i went back on my lazy diet.

Bar certain conditions and sometimes forced (rather than personal choice) steriod use most overweight people are that because they are lazy or weak willed and all the apologists in the world won't change my mind.

Personally i feel not enough food education is to blame.

Re: British Women fattest in europe : Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:45 am  

I feel we need to blame someone.
Supermarkets ... they're getting fat on people getting fat.

Re: British Women fattest in europe : Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:50 am  

Stand-Offish wrote:

I feel we need to blame someone.
Supermarkets ... they're getting fat on people getting fat.

And yet...

They sell loads of fresh product


Its consumer choice and accurate marketing by the food manufacturing companies, you never see the word "manufacturer" used in conjunction with the businesses who pick produce from the field, wash it and bag it, they aren't manufacturing anything, adding nothing, you can argue that they don't need to bag it at all but at least its still the natural product when you pick it up out of the chiller, there's a slightly different argument for the meat market in that you could confidently argue that most of the meat we buy has been manufactured before it gets to the shelf, but that is nothing compared to what goes into everything else that is contained in a tin or a box.