Re: German inflexibility of thinking : Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:37 pm  

Dally wrote:

Germany has to be one of the most boring countries on Earth. Great tracts of land that look the same mile on mile (a few forests and Bavaria apart). I am of the opinion that the lansdcape accounts for the stereotype of the people. Compare with the UK, a smaller place but with a very diverse landscape, more coastline and variable weather. The people of Britain are relatively speaking far more culturally diverse, creative and innovative.

Germany has more immigrants than the UK, it has a much higher proportion of foreign born residents than the European average, they take all sorts, Turks, Russians, Poles etc.

I wonder with the waves of immigration going into Germany whether they will be on the verge of a civil war?

Re: German inflexibility of thinking : Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:46 pm  

Dally wrote:

Nice speech, but rather off topic methinks. Are the Germans being too rigid and ultimately counter-productive?

The Germans are being too rigid. But to frame the problem within the boundaries of a nation state is to miss the wider socio-economic context which compels Germany's leaders to act in the way they are.

It's like arguing WWI was caused solely by the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand by Serb separatists.

Re: German inflexibility of thinking : Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:52 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

The Germans are being too rigid. But to frame the problem within the boundaries of a nation state is to miss the wider socio-economic context which compels Germany's leaders to act in the way they are.

But there are other options. The best one, in my opinion, would have been to have organised an orderly dismantling of the Euro. All other options appear, as things stand, catastrophic for Europe and its peoples.

Re: German inflexibility of thinking : Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:03 pm  

Dally wrote:

But there are other options. The best one, in my opinion, would have been to have organised an orderly dismantling of the Euro. All other options appear, as things stand, catastrophic for Europe and its peoples.

That's an option. But if we consider human nature - alone - it is not a very realistic one. When you think of all the trouble it took to get the Euro in place - all the promises of "better future", all the guarantees about a "more stable" economic foundation for Europe, all the cajoling, the inducements, the propaganda - it's simply unrealistic to think those who staked their political, academic and economic reputations on not just the feasibility of the Euro - but its "manifest benefits" are likely to perform a faultless backflip, hold their hands up and concede defeat.

Re: German inflexibility of thinking : Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:35 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

That's an option. But if we consider human nature - alone - it is not a very realistic one. When you think of all the trouble it took to get the Euro in place - all the promises of "better future", all the guarantees about a "more stable" economic foundation for Europe, all the cajoling, the inducements, the propaganda - it's simply unrealistic to think those who staked their political, academic and economic reputations on not just the feasibility of the Euro - but its "manifest benefits" are likely to perform a faultless backflip, hold their hands up and concede defeat.

I should add that you see this kind of thing all the time in science. There is the dominant scientific theory on something or other and out of the blue comes a competitor which, by pure reason, can be determined a "better fit". The former is surrounded by people who have made their careers (and in some cases - fortune) out of discovering and/or defending it. Do they accept the better theory? Well, some do. But many others resort to all manner of mental gymnastics and obfuscation (some of which borders upon comedic) shoring up the old one. I suspect that many of these people know deep down they are in the wrong but they simply have too much of their life invested in the past and fear an uncertain future giving it up. If the luxury liner of an existence they built is holed below the waterline they'd much rather go down with the ship than be rescued and sail the seas tomorrow in some tramp freighter.

Re: German inflexibility of thinking : Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:00 am  

tb wrote:

Ah yes German inflexibility of thought - that's why they were incapable of giving us Hegel and dialectics ....

You mean the man who claimed organic entities have rights over and above individuals?

Re: German inflexibility of thinking : Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:59 am  

Mugwump wrote:

That's an option. But if we consider human nature - alone - it is not a very realistic one. When you think of all the trouble it took to get the Euro in place - all the promises of "better future", all the guarantees about a "more stable" economic foundation for Europe, all the cajoling, the inducements, the propaganda - it's simply unrealistic to think those who staked their political, academic and economic reputations on not just the feasibility of the Euro - but its "manifest benefits" are likely to perform a faultless backflip, hold their hands up and concede defeat.

Are any of those founding fathers of the Euro still in serious office? But in any event, is that my point - they are not seeing the bigger picture and are stuck in yesterday's thought process?

[Kosh]

Re: German inflexibility of thinking : Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:26 am  

Mugwump wrote:

I should add that you see this kind of thing all the time in science. There is the dominant scientific theory on something or other and out of the blue comes a competitor which, by pure reason, can be determined a "better fit". The former is surrounded by people who have made their careers (and in some cases - fortune) out of discovering and/or defending it. Do they accept the better theory? Well, some do. But many others resort to all manner of mental gymnastics and obfuscation (some of which borders upon comedic) shoring up the old one. I suspect that many of these people know deep down they are in the wrong but they simply have too much of their life invested in the past and fear an uncertain future giving it up. If the luxury liner of an existence they built is holed below the waterline they'd much rather go down with the ship than be rescued and sail the seas tomorrow in some tramp freighter.

Actually this happens very rarely in science.

Re: German inflexibility of thinking : Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:44 am  

Kosh wrote:

Actually this happens very rarely in science.

I think you'll find it happens far more often than you believe - especially when there are political drivers at work.

There's an excellent book on this very subject by Chris Mooney called Storm World: Hurricanes, Politics, and the Battle Over Global Warming which provides a fascinating insight into the face-off between the meteorological "old guard" and the climate modelers in America set against the backdrop of Hurrican Katrina. The lengths some of the former go to in order to deny the findings of climate modelling (egged on by lobbyists for the petrochemical and motor industries) are truly spectacular.

Re: German inflexibility of thinking : Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:02 am  

Scooter Nik wrote:

Damn, I thought you of all people would have got a Monty Python reference.

Oh I did – although I'm not particularly a python fan – but I thought that I'd mention a few things anyway, for the educational improvement of Dally, at least. Although that was probably deeply misguided.