Re: Budget U-Turn : Wed May 30, 2012 4:46 pm  

sanjunien wrote:

... What a useless welsh git he was !

Welsh?
Was Portsmouth in Wales back then?

Re: Budget U-Turn : Wed May 30, 2012 4:56 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

Welsh?
Was Portsmouth in Wales back then?

sorry, the ex Rt Hon Member for Cardiff South East who became Lord Callaghan of Cardiff KG PC was a useless pompey git !

Re: Budget U-Turn : Wed May 30, 2012 7:45 pm  

And another government u-turn http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18262300

And another government u-turn http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18262300

Re: Budget U-Turn : Wed May 30, 2012 7:54 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Where we are, and tbf Blair pioneered it, is the era of spin doctors and private briefings, coupled with partial decision makers who directly stand to gain from their decisions.(basically, corruption).

Whilst Blair pioneered it, at least he had some high calibre people such as Campbell who were good at it, but in essence he realised that in fact, you don't have to listen, you don't have to consult, you can easily get away without any real consultation, as long as you spin and dress it right;

He further realised that even when caught out, there is still a place for spin doctors, as insteqad of accepting any blame or criticism at all, you can basically ride out the storm, as critically the penny dropped with him and Campbell & Co. that a media storm is just that - within days, if you ride it out, it's gone, and you've got away with whatever it was. Literally.

The more they did this, the more incredulous they became as to just how easy it was to get away with it. Even to the extent that if a senior man did something utterly terrible, then you could even get away with that by pretending to "sack" him, with a quiet word in his ear that he'd be back in around 3 - 6 months when nobody would care any more. And so it went on, until they believed that they could actually do whatever they liked with impunity. And they could. WMD being just one example.

What the Con-Libs have done is adopt the same style, but really pushed the envelope with speed of change, zero meaningful consultation, and pre-determined outcomes (hence you get Government policy which turns out to be a cut and paste from a written submission, complete with spelling mistakes, just for example).

At least with Labour, you had a reasonable number of bright people coming up with the stuff, so while the democratic process was being castrated, the end product was at least often reasonably well thought through. But with this shower of shoite, they seem to be filled to the gunwales with fools, incompetents and generally people of low ability, and so they can't see what would have been obvious snags and loopholes to a drafter with half a brain. So you have the perfect storm of policy being imposed without consultation which would at least point to many of the imminent problems, whilst being written by people whose brainpower is, simply, nowhere near up to the job.

And so ingrained has the arrogance become that they even try to spin out of the holes they create. Like trying to spin out of the pasty tax farrago, implying they are just 'listening' when it was not up for consultation, but a nailed-down plank in a fookin Budget, ffs.
Oh and of course releasing the U-turn on a "good day to bury bad news", another trick straight from New labour's portfolio. Spin, spin and more spin. Lies. Deceit. And all totally straight-faced.

I think it's a bit cheeky to blame Labour for inventing spin, it was Maggie and her henchmen, Saatchi, Bell and Ingham who invented the system. It just wasn't called spin.
I think a lot of the policies that the Tories have reneged on were decided upon in the halcyon days of opposition when they "knew" they'd be the next government. They (and the Lib-Dems in particular) were so full of hubris at once again having access to red boxes and minsterial cars, they failed to think through the effects of these policies until the s h i t hit the fan. They then pannicked and u turned. Nothing wrong with that of course - it could be sold as doing the right thing - only problem is the cost. This government spends every waking moment telling us there's no money, but apparently there is some money for repairing cock-ups. And despite Hammond brazening it out his (and Fox's) aircraft cock-up cost £100m.
Blair certainly got it right when he told the Levenson enquiry "when you come into office you're at your least competent and most popular, when you leave the opposite is true" Perhaps the next government of whatever colour will learn from Tony.

Re: Budget U-Turn : Wed May 30, 2012 8:19 pm  

sanjunien wrote:

NOTHING and I mean NOTHING would have boosted his ratings after the 'Winter of Discontent' - it gets to fine state of affairs when even the gravediggers go on strike FFS !!!

it was a terrible time to be living through, especially with the coldest winter since '63 - the UK needed change

the saddest thing of all was that Lord Jim somehow refused to go to the polls in the autumn of 1978 when he would have won hands down and Thatcherism and all the evils that went with it, including the terrible waste of life in the South Atlantic wouldn't have happened - just imagine he , single handedly could have prevented Thatcherism ? What a useless welsh git he was !

Being 55, I lived through it. I found Thatchers era a damn site worse.

Re: Budget U-Turn : Wed May 30, 2012 8:32 pm  

Callaghan was not Welsh. He was born in Portsmouth.

Re: Budget U-Turn : Wed May 30, 2012 8:34 pm  

major hound wrote:

I think it's a bit cheeky to blame Labour for inventing spin, it was Maggie and her henchmen, Saatchi, Bell and Ingham who invented the system. It just wasn't called spin.
I think a lot of the policies that the Tories have reneged on were decided upon in the halcyon days of opposition when they "knew" they'd be the next government. They (and the Lib-Dems in particular) were so full of hubris at once again having access to red boxes and minsterial cars, they failed to think through the effects of these policies until the s h i t hit the fan. They then pannicked and u turned. Nothing wrong with that of course - it could be sold as doing the right thing - only problem is the cost. This government spends every waking moment telling us there's no money, but apparently there is some money for repairing cock-ups. And despite Hammond brazening it out his (and Fox's) aircraft cock-up cost £100m.
Blair certainly got it right when he told the Levenson enquiry "when you come into office you're at your least competent and most popular, when you leave the opposite is true" Perhaps the next government of whatever colour will learn from Tony.

I think I remember Ingham being described as a 'spin doctor' at the time though - first time i'd heard the phrase. If memory serves, 'n all.

Re: Budget U-Turn : Thu May 31, 2012 3:53 am  

rover49 wrote:

Being 55, I lived through it. I found Thatchers era a damn site worse.

me too and I quite agree but all this Thatcherism thingy would have been avoided if Lord Jim had had the guts to go to the polls in the autumn of '78 to get a further mandate...

I wonder what life would have been like without Maggie ? no, seriously ?

Re: Budget U-Turn : Thu May 31, 2012 3:55 am  

Mintball wrote:

Callaghan was not Welsh. He was born in Portsmouth.

I refer the honourable Mintball to the answer I gave earlier...

Re: Budget U-Turn : Thu May 31, 2012 7:17 am  

sanjunien wrote:

me too and I quite agree but all this Thatcherism thingy would have been avoided if Lord Jim had had the guts to go to the polls in the autumn of '78 to get a further mandate...

Nail on head. Inflation was down, (temporarliy perhaps but down just the same) the Unions appeared to be playing ball, and there was a window of oppotunity. If they'd lost so what? They lost anyway in the end. Had they won they'd have had a brand new mandate and there'd have been no
"winter of discontent" And probably no Maggie. The Tories would have reverted to being a right of centre party instead of the right wing loonies they became under her. Callaghan has a lot to answer for - including fouling up Healey's chance at the leadership and lumbering Labour with Worzell Gummidge! Splitting the party and ensuring they were out for effectively a generation.