Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:45 am  

Good point.

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:09 am  

http://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/28263/ Oops

http://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/28263/ Oops

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:20 am  

Regarding Vodafone, let us not forget that the case had already been to court and the judge had decided (under the rule that shifting accounting offshore PURELY to avoid tax was not allowed) that they had indeed shifted it specifically for that reason (the upshot of that being that they were going to have to pay up to approx £6bn) ... but good old Dave Hartnett had a little chat with them and let them off with a much, much, smaller phased payment ... thereby just tossing the judge's ruling aside.
In my opinion, that's not just tax avoidance, it's far worse.
I think there's something under way to check whether what he did is actually legal.

Dave Hartnett is now leaving HMRC, apparently of his own volition, no mention of sacking or anything like that.
It'll be interesting to see what job he does next ... tax avoidance perhaps? (as soon as the restrictions allow ... or sooner if he knows a way round it?).

The whole thing reeks of chummyness.

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:52 pm  

Andy Gilder wrote:

Just to inform and educate Dally a little...

What the likes of Vodafone and others do is take a very, Uvery extreme interpretation of legislation and case law in order to treat profits earned in the UK from UK customers as being taxable elsewhere. The elsewhere often being somewhere like Luxembourg with lower CT rates.

They are effectively shifting money that should be taxed in theUK overseas, and challenging HMRC to pursue them through the courts for it in the knowledge that they have the cash and lawyers to string it out for years, while HMRC don't.

As a result, HMRC will settle for something as being better than nothing for the public purse. These companies are wilfully evading UK tax, not avoiding it. If successive rounds of public sector cuts hadn't pulled the teeth from HMRC they may not have found it so easy.

As I said, it goes back to political will. If our legislators took the matter seriously they'd amend the law or write good law and they could provide HMRC with more or less unlimited funds (relative to Vodafone) if they wished. They fact is they don't (or at least didn't during the Labour years).

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:55 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Even the Mail has got an opinion piece today, opining that 'what is immoral' is government constantly harping on about tax and morality, while doing nothing to deal with the likes of Google and Vodaphone (the two it mentions) paying next to nowt, and multi-millionaires who live in this country but pay next to no tax.

So there.

Hurrumph.

I have said on here a long time ago that we need to move to a tax system whereby liability is linked to turnover generated withy the UK or a worldwide tax.

UK politicians do not care about tax avoidance / evasion as is shown by the number of UK 'dependencies' that are tax havens.

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:26 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

Regarding Vodafone, let us not forget that the case had already been to court and the judge had decided (under the rule that shifting accounting offshore PURELY to avoid tax was not allowed) that they had indeed shifted it specifically for that reason (the upshot of that being that they were going to have to pay up to approx £6bn) ... but good old Dave Hartnett had a little chat with them and let them off with a much, much, smaller phased payment ... thereby just tossing the judge's ruling aside.
In my opinion, that's not just tax avoidance, it's far worse.
I think there's something under way to check whether what he did is actually legal.

Dave Hartnett is now leaving HMRC, apparently of his own volition, no mention of sacking or anything like that.
It'll be interesting to see what job he does next ... tax avoidance perhaps? (as soon as the restrictions allow ... or sooner if he knows a way round it?).

The whole thing reeks of chummyness.

Lets not forget that the person negotiating for Vodaphone was Hartnett's ex-boss who recommended him for the role he was leaving. Something is rotten and rotten to the core.

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:30 pm  

Big Graeme wrote:

Lets not forget that the person negotiating for Vodaphone was Hartnett's ex-boss who recommended him for the role he was leaving. Something is rotten and rotten to the core.

I had forgotten that. Thanks for the reminder.

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:57 pm  

Andy Gilder wrote:

Just to inform and educate Dally a little...

What the likes of Vodafone and others do is take a very, Uvery extreme interpretation of legislation and case law in order to treat profits earned in the UK from UK customers as being taxable elsewhere. The elsewhere often being somewhere like Luxembourg with lower CT rates.

They are effectively shifting money that should be taxed in theUK overseas, and challenging HMRC to pursue them through the courts for it in the knowledge that they have the cash and lawyers to string it out for years, while HMRC don't.

As a result, HMRC will settle for something as being better than nothing for the public purse. These companies are wilfully evading UK tax, not avoiding it. If successive rounds of public sector cuts hadn't pulled the teeth from HMRC they may not have found it so easy.

IIRC HMRC's legal budget is all but blown in the first quarter of the year, all they have left is the wherewithall to pursue the plumbers etc...

Another point that Gauke spectacularly fails to grasp is that once a wealthy individual or corporate entity offshore their money to avoid tax, that money is then lost totally to the UK economy - all of it, as if it never, ever existed. Whereas, as has been mentioned, the plumber, sparky and cleaner will tend to spend their ill-gotten gains within the local economy, simply because they have no means of offshoring it.

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:08 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

Whereas, as has been mentioned, the plumber, sparky and cleaner will tend to spend their ill-gotten gains within the local economy, simply because they have no means of offshoring it.

Made the same point earlier. At least that money stays in the UK and some tax will be paid

Re: Oi, you filthy tradesmen and women! : Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:08 am  

I wonder how much tax dodgy Barclays banker Jerry del Missier will pay on his £8.75m pay off for failure?

I wonder how much tax dodgy Barclays banker Jerry del Missier will pay on his £8.75m pay off for failure?