Re: The Tories & Europe : Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:07 pm  

SamWire wrote:

DaveO wrote:

You will find it is mostly to do with employment legislation such as the working time directive.
What EU employment law does is protect the majority of people in this country from unscrupulous employers and the Tories would love to repeal all of it so people end up with no job security or employment rights whatsoever.

then the trade union movement will rise from the ashes and children will once again descend from chimneys. the communist utopia so craved by crowe, mccluskey et al will finally be realised. vote 'out' comrades, it's the only way

So, are you saying that employment law is not necessary?
At least, I think that is what that rabid outburst was meant to convey.

Re: The Tories & Europe : Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:31 pm  

Cookridge_Rhino wrote:

I completely disagree that membership of the EU is a net drag on our economy. My point was that there is a huge disconnect between the opinions of the politicians (of all three major parties), and of the population. That is why there is a lot of posturing, and that is why I can't imagine the Europe issue getting solved anytime soon. All the parties feel like they need to offer a referendum in order to win votes, but they are all worried if they give the people a choice they will choose the 'wrong' option.

My point about the media was that like it or not, we are living in a country where most people decide how to vote on things like referenda, not based on an objective look at the facts and implications of their choice. But instead based on a quick glance at the options and which side has the catchiest slogan (slightly simplifying there but its not far from the truth).

I'm not a big fan of a lot of MP's, and there needs to be better systems in place to stop them basing their decisions on which will personally benefit themselves or their party. However I'd rather MP's make these sort of decisions than the public which on the whole is pretty unintelligent, very uneducated and is easily manipulated by a purely self-interested media.

I wouldn't let the vast majority of MP decide whether I should empty my cat's litter tray never mind something of this significance. The majority of MPs have little life experience outside of politics and if they were of a higher calibre they would not even be in politics.

Let's face what work experiences and specialised knowledge have any of the main party leaders got that put them in a better position to decide than the likes of Alan Sugar?

Re: The Tories & Europe : Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:38 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

So, are you saying that employment law is not necessary?
At least, I think that is what that rabid outburst was meant to convey.

rabid outburst?
the only people who are having those think we're off back to the poorhouses/slavery if, heaven forbid, the tories give us a vote on something in 4 years. still, i'm sure there's plenty of people lining up to be the next tolpuddle martyrs.

Re: The Tories & Europe : Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:45 pm  

samwire wrote:

rabid outburst?
the only people who are having those think we're off back to the poorhouses/slavery if, heaven forbid, the tories give us a vote on something in 4 years. still, i'm sure there's plenty of people lining up to be the next tolpuddle martyrs.

Its like political tourettes.

Re: The Tories & Europe : Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:26 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I wouldn't let the vast majority of MP decide whether I should empty my cat's litter tray never mind something of this significance. The majority of MPs have little life experience outside of politics and if they were of a higher calibre they would not even be in politics

That being the case, you're not actually in favour of parliamentary democracy.

As most people don't have a clue about the EU, and can't be @rsed to find out the facts, I don't see how a referendum would be much use except as a political stunt for Cameron to fob-off the UKIP tendency in his party.

Our entire constitution (monarchy, commons, lords, supreme court, etc, etc) has come about over centuries without any referenda, so why is this issue any different?

Re: The Tories & Europe : Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:36 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

As most people don't have a clue about the EU, and can't be @rsed to find out the facts, I don't see how a referendum would be much use except as a political stunt for Cameron to fob-off the UKIP tendency in his party.

Personally, this is my main worry about this whole thing....We are putting, arguably, the most important decision in this country's future, in the hands of a huge amount of people who haven't the first clue about what they are expected to vote on.

Worryingly, for the vast majority, their decision will be hugely influenced by the likes of The Sun and The Mail - Its almost inevitable that this whole thing will turn into race/immigration issue, with the little Englanders being swayed with xenophobic rhetoric - I'm expecting plenty of anti-German, anti-French, anti-AnybodyButOurselves stuff from the majority of our popular media and I'm afraid it will become increasingly distasteful.

[Durham Giant]

Re: The Tories & Europe : Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:56 pm  

This is nothing about Europe. It is about politics to win the next election.

It cuts the UKIP off at the knees.

It gives the Tories the chance to appeal to nationalism and to those who believe the cause of Britains woes are Europe.

It gives them clear water from the Lib Dems.

The Tories win the election and the Lib Dems are wiped out.

Cameron then negotiates with the EU who say no we will not let you be in our club but give you vetoes etc which give you economic advantages.

Cameron then goes to the country with a referendum saying i tried to negoatiate but got nowhere but we have to stay in Europe as it will be disastrous for the UK economy to leave ( he has already said he wants to negotiate powers back but that we should not withdraw from Europe).

All the major parties then say stay in Europe he either wins the vote or lose it and we withdraw from Europe.

Either way he is playing Russian Roulette with the British Economy. But as it is about winning elections who cares.

Re: The Tories & Europe : Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:20 pm  

What is wrong with giving the voters a say on such an important issue? After all the last time the British public voted to stay in or leave what was the EEC which was then just an economic trading club.

So much has changed since then. The EEC has become the EU with the accent more on politics and bureaucracy than trade. An undemocratic commission having such a say in legislation on issues that were previously made in our own parliament is a reasonable concern. The single currency which became the disaster many had forecast. To overhaul the inherent flaws in the Euro the EU leaders are demanding changes that will affect all 27 members and not just the 17 members who adopted the Euro.

The EU (EEC) is continually changing and so it is not unreasonable for the PM to seek to change some of the terms of our membership as indeed others are doing with regard to the single currency. The EU needs to change and give some urgent priority to solving its loss of competitiveness.

In commiting to a future referendum on this important issue it should open up some serious debate and bring forth the real facts as to the pluses and minuses so we are all better informed.

I suspect that the Labour party now will follow the Conservatives and include a referendum pledge in their manifesto.

The EU has been splendid for career politicians and bureaucrats. It has also been very good for large companies and multi-nationals who have the funds and legals teams to overcome the hurdles. (coincidentally these same politicians and large companies would have had us join the Euro so no suprise that they don't want a referendum)

But for the large number of SME's that form the backbone of the UK it has been not so good.

I have a feeling too that our bigger companies found EU trade easier than working at the emerging markets so became complacent. Which may be an answer to our dismal export performance to the BRIC market

Re: The Tories & Europe : Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:12 pm  

Durham Giant wrote:

This is nothing about Europe. It is about politics to win the next election.

It cuts the UKIP off at the knees.

It gives the Tories the chance to appeal to nationalism and to those who believe the cause of Britains woes are Europe.

It gives them clear water from the Lib Dems.

The Tories win the election and the Lib Dems are wiped out.

Cameron then negotiates with the EU who say no we will not let you be in our club but give you vetoes etc which give you economic advantages.

Cameron then goes to the country with a referendum saying i tried to negoatiate but got nowhere but we have to stay in Europe as it will be disastrous for the UK economy to leave ( he has already said he wants to negotiate powers back but that we should not withdraw from Europe).

All the major parties then say stay in Europe he either wins the vote or lose it and we withdraw from Europe.

Either way he is playing Russian Roulette with the British Economy. But as it is about winning elections who cares.

Well firstly of course it is about politics. This is a political issue.

You seem to be critical of a PM for being aware of the public's concern regarding the EU.

Are you against the PM trying to return some of the lost powers to our parliament?

If you read his speech he is obviously commited to remaining in the EU. But he is not shirking the very difficult job of trying to renegotiate lost powers. This may or may not be successful. But come the next election the public will know if he was successful and if he or the EU were being unreasonable and they can vote accordingley.

If he were to win the next election my guess is that all three main parties will campaign to stay in and the public will also then vote also to stay in.

Another senario is that this stategy brings out the real facts regarding our membership and it may show that leaving the EU is not the disaster that the Europhiles keep predicting.

eg Our huge trade deficit with the EU together with the cost of membership produces an unconvincing argument for staying in. (46bn GBP deficit with EU in 2011 ...17.1bn surplus with rest of world)

Indeed there could well be further trouble for the Euro before the election with more costly bailouts required.

My own view is to try and win back some powers that give some benefit to our trade but I am at present open minded as to staying in or leaving. I would like to see the full facts.

However my guess is that the real economic plus or minus to our membership is very small (UK exports to the EU are equivalent to less than 8.7% of UK GDP much less than the rest of the world (10%)) and talk of an economic disaster if we leave are just scare stories. Under Article 50, the EU is legally required to negotiate "free and fair trade" with non-EU countries, so we would continue to have access to the EU markets, just like other countries. The EU would not want a trade war with the UK, if we were outside the single market as they have much more to lose than we.

Re: The Tories & Europe : Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:06 am  

samwire wrote:

if only there was some way of protesting against this to make sure the 'privileged few' don't get their own way. what we need is every 4/5 years a, oh what shall we call it, an election or something where the oppressed masses can finally free themselves of the shackles that hold them. a chance for every adult to decide the fate of the country. i know, it's a crazy idea, but we have to dream.

So why propose a referendum?