Re: Jon Venables and the ugly vigilante mob : Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:28 am  

"It is a fundamental duty of the state to ensure that suspects, defendants and prisoners are protected from violence and not subjected to retribution or punishment except in accordance with the sentence of a court.

"That principle applies just as much to unpopular defendants as to anyone else."

Except that if it really is a fundamental duty, then it is one that is not carried out in 99.9% of criminal cases, as the overwhelming majority of offenders are not given permanent and highly expensive protection. So it is a bit naive to call it a "principle". A true "principle" would be one which you either had the means and ability to act upon, or at least make a good effort. the truth is that protection from the mob for the convicted is a rare commodity. Most would have to dial 999 like anyone else.

Mintball wrote:

Unbelievable. Exactly why they were given new identities.

I think you are missing a fundamental point. This poor guy had, reportedly suffered at least a year of vile abuse and torment, before he eventually felt his best option was to end his own life, but he had done NOTHING to deserve it. If we have unlimited funds, manpower etc. why did the machinery of this mythical fundamental dutyu swing into gear and either give this man the same or a similar or adequate level of protection as Venables gets, or, at the very least, go public to make it 100% convincingly clear, certain and unambiguous that this man was not Venables, and that any further abuse of any sort, offenders would be arrested and prosecuted?

This tragedy kind of makes my point. You seem to be suggesting that it is almost fair enough that innocent people might die due to nasty malicious toerags, as long as the guilty are protected.

It is also worth stating that despite the apparent mistaken belief that this guy was a killer, and didn't have police protection, nobody killed him or attempted to do so, so far as we are told. He:

suffered months of malicious abuse and torment from a hate mob in the village of Garlieston, Wigtownshire, in Scotland.
Mr Bradley, who moved to Scotland seven years ago, left a heartbreaking suicide note which read: 'They called me all sorts - a paedophile, a follower of young girls, walking around bullying old people.
'The list is endless. And I’m supposed to be a child killer.'

Why was he undeserving of protection to stop this? Perhaps part of the answer may lie in the modern trend that in general you can be ever more verbally vile and abusive, whether in the street, or on Twitter or Facebook or wherever, yet the law seems to be stepping ever-further away from the line onto the freedom of speech side. The impression is that as time goes by you are going to have to say something particularly repellent in future to get your collar felt. So perhaps the mob spouting vile hatred is just viewed as sticks and stones, and if you can't hack it, tough? "Call us if they start smashing your windows and breaking down your door"?

I know you didn't mean to, but the point I am trying to make is that in simply citing the sad case of Mr Bradley as a reason why Venables should continue to be protected at all costs, you have de facto dismissed the value of the lost life of Mr. Bradley without a comment. All he was, was a valedictory example of what Venables might face, and so him, or any other innocent mistaken identity case, getting suicidal due to a long campaign of abuse from the mob (and the authorities failing to sort it out) is presumably a price worth paying if it means that the adult paedophile Venables does not.

Re: Jon Venables and the ugly vigilante mob : Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:30 am  

Oh my facebook has the Venables thing on my timeline too, so so many sheep when it comes to cases involving children being murdered. What these facebook sheep seem to forget that Venables himself was just a kid, not a grown man, at the time.

Re: Jon Venables and the ugly vigilante mob : Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:38 am  

p

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Except that if it really is a fundamental duty, then it is one that is not carried out in 99.9% of criminal cases, as the overwhelming majority of offenders are not given permanent and highly expensive protection. So it is a bit naive to call it a "principle". A true "principle" would be one which you either had the means and ability to act upon, or at least make a good effort. the truth is that protection from the mob for the convicted is a rare commodity. Most would have to dial 999 like anyone else.

Im not sure how you have made that leap. If in 99.9% of cases there isn’t a threat of retribution, then not providing new identities isn’t an avoidance of that responsibility. If in 0.1% of cases there is a threat of retribution, and that 0.1% are provided with protection congruent with the threat, then that responsibility has quite obviously been met.

The principle the judge is talking about isn’t applicable to the overwhelming majority of offenders, that’s why the overwhelming majority don’t get expensive new identities or protection. They have no need for it. Some do, so they get it.

As you have done your usual trick of ignoring the parts of the post you cant argue against (a post which actually contained nothing from me but was the reasoned judgement of the presiding judge explaining his reasons, under law that the protection given was not only needed but obliged, it was the person capable of making such a decision, making such a decision, explaining their reasoning and explaining why you are wrong) and picking out a bit, that in isolation you can, rather than spend the next 5 pages with me explaining this, lets just leave it there.

[DaveO]

Re: Jon Venables and the ugly vigilante mob : Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:18 pm  

kirkstaller wrote:

I find such views worse than Venables' crime. At least he could argue some degree of ignorance.

If you look at the details of the case the police went out of their way to find out if both of them knew what they were doing and if that they knew what they were doing was inherently wrong. It was a major part of the case against them as the police and prosecution felt a defence of some kind of diminished responsibility should not (and could not) stand up to scrutiny. That is what shocked people most at the time in that they knew what they were doing.

The lad has done his time. Some may feel that justice has not been served, but that is their issue, and they must address it. They should deal with their own anger, rather than organise a nationwide manhunt for this man.

They don't have to deal with anything if they hold an opinion that they should not be released which is the view of the mother. It's not for anyone to lecture the parents and to tell them to "deal with it". Of course vigilantism is wrong but that is stating the obvious and is not unique to this case.

This all brings things round to the notion of forgiveness. I don't know whether Denise Fergus will ever forgive her son's murderers. I would find it hard, that's for sure, and I'm always in awe of parents who find it in their hearts to forgive such evil.
But forgiveness is not about the wrongdoer, it's about the wronged.

I'll always remember the night I prayed for someone I felt had wronged me - Osama Bin Laden. On the day his death was reported, I closed my eyes and prayed that God be merciful to him.

I'm not saying this to be self-righteous; I'm saying this because forgiveness works.

Perhaps we should all forgive Jon Venables. Or at least forget about him.

I don't think forgiveness is necessarily the right word. I think constant hatred of someone is exhausting so giving that up can possibly free someone's mind up who was greatly wronged. Even that would be immensely difficult when Denise Fergus regularly sees Venables in the news.

As to Bin Lid he didn't wrong you at all. He organised some very nasty acts of terrorism but unless you were a victim you have nothing to forgive him for on a personal level. What is interesting about you bringing up Bin Lid is not the forgiveness angle but the lack of any mention of the way in which he died. He was basically taken out by the US State as they regularly take out perceived enemies either like that or via drone attacks. Justice, which is what Venables got, is out of the window it seems.

Re: Jon Venables and the ugly vigilante mob : Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:27 pm  

100% Wire wrote:

Oh my facebook has the Venables thing on my timeline too, so so many sheep when it comes to cases involving children being murdered. What these facebook sheep seem to forget that Venables himself was just a kid, not a grown man, at the time.

does it make a difference that he was a kid when he committed this evil act?

this week i've read the court report about what they did to that poor child, i've read the arresting officers interview in the paper and also his interview with panorama, last night i sat and cried reading what they had done. it makes my blood boil. to try in anyway to excuse their actions on the fact that they were children themselves and that they were abused is laughable!

there are plenty of abused children who grow up and never abuse. my own brother in law was abused, he grew up and became a social worker working in childrens services trying to stop the same things that happened to him.

jon venables was rearrested and charged in 2010 with child pornography offences, tell me that he didn't know what he was doing on that fateful day? tell me that prison has rehabilitated him?

i can truely understand some peoples view that they wish these two harm. they will never, ever live a quiet, normal life. everyday will be spent looking over their shoulders awaiting the moment someone realizes who they are and what they did, and what action that person may take. but do they really deserve millions of pounds having their identities constantly changed, new NI numbers issued, new addresses, new lifes? they committed the crime, they served the time/sentence handed down, they have been released into society, maybe, just maybe they should live with the consequences of their actions?

[DaveO]

Re: Jon Venables and the ugly vigilante mob : Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:35 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Unbelievable. Exactly why they were given new identities.

The point Denise Fergus makes is that had they not had new identities then this man would not have been able to be persecuted as he was.

So the argument is by giving them new identities it directs the mindless mob against the innocent. That should never happen and if new identities are indeed necessary there needs to be some form of well publicised mechanism available to deal with this for anyone who is being accused of being someone they aren't in this way. And going to the local plod office isn't it. It would need some kind of national body that came down hard on the vigilantes and if necessary relocated the one being wronged if that us what they wanted.

Re: Jon Venables and the ugly vigilante mob : Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:42 pm  

fatboystu wrote:

does it make a difference that he was a kid when he committed this evil act?

Yes. It does.

And indeed, the hysteria around this case, when there have been plenty of other cases of particularly gruesome murders, is indicative of exactly how this case has been treated differently. Presumably, because some people hold on to an idea that children are inherently 'innocent', making such a case as this (which is rare, but not unique) somehow more appalling, since it challenges that romantic view. And that in turn leads to an idea that the killers were somehow particularly 'evil' or demonic.

There are, if I remember the stats correctly, something like 50 children murdered in the UK each year. Some are skilled by siblings. Some by parents or other family. Some by strangers. That's around one a week. You or I won't even hear about most of those. Do you really believe that they are so much less bad than this particularly sensationalised case?

fatboystu wrote:

... to try in anyway to excuse their actions on the fact that they were children themselves ...

I've yet to find a single person who has attempted to "excuse" the actions of the two. They may have tried to find ways to understand why they did what they did. That is not the same thing. And it is surely a good thing to try to understand such cases, not least in the hope that one can avoid repeats.

Re: Jon Venables and the ugly vigilante mob : Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:45 pm  

DaveO wrote:

The point Denise Fergus makes is that had they not had new identities then this man would not have been able to be persecuted as he was.

So the argument is by giving them new identities it directs the mindless mob against the innocent. That should never happen and if new identities are indeed necessary there needs to be some form of well publicised mechanism available to deal with this for anyone who is being accused of being someone they aren't in this way. And going to the local plod office isn't it. It would need some kind of national body that came down hard on the vigilantes and if necessary relocated the one being wronged if that us what they wanted.

Agree with that.

Not that that sort of case is unique.

Fortunately, the thick little sods who harassed a woman from her home because they were too dumb to know the difference between 'paedophile' and 'paediatrician' did no more than hound her from her home. And equally, thankfully nobody was actually killed in the Paulsgrove rioting that followed the NotW's to 'out' sex offenders (although Paulsgrove did see that used as an excuse to cover other attacks).

Re: Jon Venables and the ugly vigilante mob : Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:06 pm  

Whilst that may be Denise Fergus’ argument, its not a particularly good one

Regardless of your views of the crime, its punishment, the case as a whole, whatever.

Any vigilante action is crime. That’s what needs to be addressed. We need, as a society, to remember that. The press and sadly often people involved in cases spend to much time demonising, dehumanising and labelling people who have committed crime, whipping certain sections of society into a frenzy. In cases like these we always seem to get to a point where the perpetrators have become so dehumanised, so demonised that they become fairytale monsters with a mob egging each other on in to more violent and more aggressive revenge fantasies.

[DaveO]

Re: Jon Venables and the ugly vigilante mob : Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:26 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Whilst that may be Denise Fergus’ argument, its not a particularly good one

Why not? There is clearly a link between the fact the identities of her sons killers are kept secret and the fact this man was harassed. The fact it is wrong for him to have been harassed doesn't break that link.

I am not saying they should not have their identities kept secret but that if you do then there are consequences for others.

Treating it simply as a crime won't completely fix it either because that won't stop the tongues wagging. There needs to be a mechanism to not only stop the illegal acts associated with vigilantism involving cases of mistaken identity but also putting things to right so all those involved are made to fully understand their mistake.