Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:42 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

... They may have the vote and equal rights but is their life better?

Bloody hell mate, did you really mean that?

[DaveO]

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:44 pm  

rover49 wrote:

All sides were guilty of killings and other acts of violence, I suppose it depends on what side you take or outcome you wish to prevail as to whether its justified or not. Burning tyre's around peoples necks (thousands on their own people) were just as horrific as anything the white oppressive government did. A lot of innocents were killed by both side and knowing someone who was born & raised there, but now lives in the UK, the level of black on black violence is apparently not getting any better. Also, even after all these years of black majority rule, the average poor black South African doesn't appear to be any better off than before.

There is corruption and violence in all society's so you need to be very careful of lumping the necklacing of innocent people with the aims of the Anti-apartheid movement.

I visited South Africa on a Rugby Tour in 2010 and took a tour to Robin Island prison. We were shown round by a former inmate. His crime, firing a rocket propelled grenade at a petrol tanker. It didn't go off. He got a life sentence for that. Why did he fire it? His pregnant girlfriend was killed by security forces enforcing apartheid.

Now that to me has got nothing to do with what kind of violent society South Africa is today or old tribal scores being settled.

Most politicians are in it for what they can get, it just varies in the level of corruption depending what part of the world you live in.

And quite a few are genuine. Whether you can be genuine and not be a bit of a swine and assume power is an interesting question. Chavez may have lined his own pockets (I don't know if he did or he didn't) but whatever his faults I reckon his country and people are far better off than had the kind of pro-USA administration the US leadership wanted been installed instead.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:12 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

Sal Paradise wrote:

... They may have the vote and equal rights but is their life better?

Bloody hell mate, did you really mean that?

That bit stood out for me, too. Wow.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:17 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

Bloody hell mate, did you really mean that?

Yes I did - is poverty amongst the black South Africans more now than under white rule, you only have to look at what happened to the taxi driver last week to see all is far from OK.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:18 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Bear in mind, t'other 'alf spent 10 years of his life there, from 12 to 22, so I cannot escape being reasonably conversant with the place. He still has family out there too.

The historical fact remains, though, that initial movements against apartheid were non-violewnt – this includes the ANC.

That changed when it became clear that the apartheid regime was not interested in any concessions whatsoever, and was entirely happy to kill even non-violent protestors.

In which case, how do you meet that behaviour if you do not wish to give up your struggle?

SA was my first ever overseas place to visit in 1973, cannot remember much about it as I was 16 and only wanted to get pi$$ed or layed (or both !!). Going next year to Gansbai and south of Durban for a diving holiday, so am hoping to see something of the place and maybe at 56, remember more of it.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:21 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Yes I did - is poverty amongst the black South Africans more now than under white rule, you only have to look at what happened to the taxi driver last week to see all is far from OK.

And a 16-year-old young woman was stabbed to death on a bus in Birmingham this morning – shall we extrapolate that women were better off before they had to go to school?

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:24 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Yes I did - is poverty amongst the black South Africans more now than under white rule, you only have to look at what happened to the taxi driver last week to see all is far from OK.

Democracy is wonderful, but it doesn't necassarily stop people living in squalor or starving from lack of basic food. Would democracy mean the people of Cuba would be better off, currently they have better health care than we do, almost 100% literacy and enough food to live on and having stayed in Havana on a number of occasions, you rarely see them not smiling. All this is likely to go once a pro-American 'free' Cuba becomes reality and all the criminals, drug dealer etc that Castro allowed to 'emigrate' to America make a return.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:26 pm  

Mintball wrote:

And a 16-year-old young woman was stabbed to death on a bus in Birmingham this morning – shall we extrapolate that women were better off before they had to go to school?

I would argue that society in this country has gone backwards in the last decade and quality of life has suffered. Are we as humans happier than we were ten years ago - would you say culturally this country is moving forward?

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:29 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

El Barbudo wrote:

Bloody hell mate, did you really mean that?

Yes I did - is poverty amongst the black South Africans more now than under white rule, you only have to look at what happened to the taxi driver last week to see all is far from OK.

That bad things still happen doesn't mean that black people were 'better off' being treated like animals by white people. That you would even suggest such a thing is mind-blowing.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:30 pm  

Mintball wrote:

And a 16-year-old young woman was stabbed to death on a bus in Birmingham this morning – shall we extrapolate that women were better off before they had to go to school?

That is one in this country compared to 40-50 every day in South Africa, the occurrences of rape - something you quite rightly hold dear - are rising annually. I ask again is the average black South African in a better place now than they were?