Re: Euro Crisis Revived With Yet Another EU Buggle : Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:10 pm  

Scooter Nik wrote:

Nice bit of racial stereotyping there Dally.

And he likes the Germans.
They offer him butties on long train journeys.

Re: Euro Crisis Revived With Yet Another EU Buggle : Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:26 pm  

Dally is right about bank deposits. BTW anybody catch the Jeremy Vine show today? One of the commentators on the show actually stated the unspoken truth that 97% of our money is in fact created as a loan by Private Banks (debt money) and mentioned that over the last 12 months our money supply has dropped by 12% due to people paying off debt and banks not creating new money by refusing to make new loans. (1 Hour 54 minutes into the show). http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01r771l Also I see the banks in Cyprus are still closed - surely there's going to be a bank run once they finally open the doors?

Dally is right about bank deposits. BTW anybody catch the Jeremy Vine show today? One of the commentators on the show actually stated the unspoken truth that 97% of our money is in fact created as a loan by Private Banks (debt money) and mentioned that over the last 12 months our money supply has dropped by 12% due to people paying off debt and banks not creating new money by refusing to make new loans. (1 Hour 54 minutes into the show). http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01r771l Also I see the banks in Cyprus are still closed - surely there's going to be a bank run once they finally open the doors?

Re: Euro Crisis Revived With Yet Another EU Buggle : Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:44 pm  

LeighGionaire wrote:

Also I see the banks in Cyprus are still closed - surely there's going to be a bank run once they finally open the doors?

Can't see them being able to re-open until a bail-out happens and capital controls are in place. If they do re-open beforehand it will be for very limited withdrawals.

I think Britain should use its overseas aid budget to bail them out. Would help the cause of breaking up the EU.

Re: Euro Crisis Revived With Yet Another EU Buggle : Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:48 pm  

Seeing as it's no longer 'conspiracy theory' to say banks create money out of nothing can anybody give me one good reason Private Banks should have control over a nations money supply?

Re: Euro Crisis Revived With Yet Another EU Buggle : Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:41 pm  

LeighGionaire wrote: Dally is right about bank deposits. BTW anybody catch the Jeremy Vine show today? One of the commentators on the show actually stated the unspoken truth that 97% of our money is in fact created as a loan by Private Banks (debt money) and mentioned that over the last 12 months our money supply has dropped by 12% due to people paying off debt and banks not creating new money by refusing to make new loans. (1 Hour 54 minutes into the show). http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01r771l Also I see the banks in Cyprus are still closed - surely there's going to be a bank run once they finally open the doors? The banks are closed to the public but are open so staff can get in and fill ATM's. If you are desperate to some cash you can get at it just not in one huge amount.

LeighGionaire wrote: Dally is right about bank deposits. BTW anybody catch the Jeremy Vine show today? One of the commentators on the show actually stated the unspoken truth that 97% of our money is in fact created as a loan by Private Banks (debt money) and mentioned that over the last 12 months our money supply has dropped by 12% due to people paying off debt and banks not creating new money by refusing to make new loans. (1 Hour 54 minutes into the show). http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01r771l Also I see the banks in Cyprus are still closed - surely there's going to be a bank run once they finally open the doors? The banks are closed to the public but are open so staff can get in and fill ATM's. If you are desperate to some cash you can get at it just not in one huge amount.

Re: Euro Crisis Revived With Yet Another EU Buggle : Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:19 am  

Its never been a 'conspiracy theory' to say banks create money out of nothing - its still complete nonsense, like the last thousand times you suggested it.

One thing that irks me is the Germans tut-tutting over the southern states (understandably in some cases), and yet the economic disaster in that part of the Eurozone is - entirely coincidentally of course - helping to ensure the continued competitiveness of German manufacturing through keeping the Euro low. In that sense the Germans aren't 'paying' for anything - its the other way round.

Re: Euro Crisis Revived With Yet Another EU Buggle : Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:28 am  

Quite interesting article on 'the German problem'. I think it simplifies some aspects of the history: it was Prussia specifically that suffered when trying to be neutral, both in the Thirty Years War and in 1806 when Napoleon invaded, and suffered horrendously as a result, which facts can inform an understanding of foreign policy under the newly unified Germany from 1871 on. It's difficult to emphasise enough that the Thirty Years War was not a 'German war' – it was a European war that happened to take place on German soil. Thankfully he mentions the role of Brits in that – although he doesn't go on to point out that many of those who learnt their soldiering in that conflict then went on to put their experience to use in the English Civil Wars. However, at least he mentions that part of the 'problem' is actually a continuing Germanophobia – something we could argue has been seen here.

Quite interesting article on 'the German problem'. I think it simplifies some aspects of the history: it was Prussia specifically that suffered when trying to be neutral, both in the Thirty Years War and in 1806 when Napoleon invaded, and suffered horrendously as a result, which facts can inform an understanding of foreign policy under the newly unified Germany from 1871 on. It's difficult to emphasise enough that the Thirty Years War was not a 'German war' – it was a European war that happened to take place on German soil. Thankfully he mentions the role of Brits in that – although he doesn't go on to point out that many of those who learnt their soldiering in that conflict then went on to put their experience to use in the English Civil Wars. However, at least he mentions that part of the 'problem' is actually a continuing Germanophobia – something we could argue has been seen here.

[DaveO]

Re: Euro Crisis Revived With Yet Another EU Buggle : Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:28 am  

Kosh wrote:

Again, not true. The Germans and the IMF were in favour of honouring the investor guarantee for ordinary bank customers. The Cypriot government decided not to honour it in an attempt to minimise the upset to their Russian paymasters.

The deposit guarantee scheme only comes into play if banks go bust. This is not the case so it wasn't ever a case of honouring or not honouring deposits guarantee schemes so I don't know what youo are on about there.

The debate is about the nature of a bailout and the terms of that including the raid on deposits which was imposed by the troika and the Germans are most certainly behind that as explained below.

The Germans are simply not to blame here, no matter how much certain sections of our media would like them to be.

What do you mean not to blame? For what? My post was paraphrasing the comments of the CEO of the German Stock exchange on the German position regarding who should fund the Cypriot bail out. So it most certainly IS true that the German position on that is as stated which is that Cyprus must contribute.

Furthermore the motivation for the bailout deal being structured as it is with savings being targeted for the 6bn Euros is a direct consequence of German politicians views that a straightforward bailout would be rewarding large Russian deposit holders and the Germans also view these depositors potentially being involved in money laundering. This is THE big motivator behind the raid on deposits and it is as a result of this German view that the troika put the deal of 10bn of loans and 6bn from deposits to Cyprus.

The money laundering aspect is big news in Germany and there is no way Germany would support a different restructuring package because of this.

As of today the ECB has come out and said it will only support the Cypriot banks until Monday 25th. Cyprus has to find 6bn by Monday in a way that satisfies the ECB/IMF or their banks collapse. All hail the democratically elected ECB and IMF officials....oh wait a minute

[Kosh]

Re: Euro Crisis Revived With Yet Another EU Buggle : Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:20 am  

DaveO wrote:

The deposit guarantee scheme only comes into play if banks go bust. This is not the case so it wasn't ever a case of honouring or not honouring deposits guarantee schemes so I don't know what youo are on about there.

The debate is about the nature of a bailout and the terms of that including the raid on deposits which was imposed by the troika and the Germans are most certainly behind that as explained below.

Nonetheless, the German finance minister and the IMF wanted depositors with less than 100k Euros exempted from any levy as they considered this to be in conflict with the guarantee. The Cypriot government decided differently in an attempt to mollify their Russian paymasters.

DaveO wrote:

What do you mean not to blame? For what? My post was paraphrasing the comments of the CEO of the German Stock exchange on the German position regarding who should fund the Cypriot bail out. So it most certainly IS true that the German position on that is as stated which is that Cyprus must contribute.

Not to blame for depositors with less than 100k Euros being part of the deal. I never contested the point that Cyprus was required to contribute.

DaveO wrote:

Furthermore the motivation for the bailout deal being structured as it is with savings being targeted for the 6bn Euros is a direct consequence of German politicians views that a straightforward bailout would be rewarding large Russian deposit holders and the Germans also view these depositors potentially being involved in money laundering. This is THE big motivator behind the raid on deposits and it is as a result of this German view that the troika put the deal of 10bn of loans and 6bn from deposits to Cyprus.

It's not just the Germans who have these concerns.

DaveO wrote:

The money laundering aspect is big news in Germany and there is no way Germany would support a different restructuring package because of this.

The German public certainly wouldn't. The German government has stated that it's up to Cyprus where the 6bn Euro comes from.

DaveO wrote:

As of today the ECB has come out and said it will only support the Cypriot banks until Monday 25th. Cyprus has to find 6bn by Monday in a way that satisfies the ECB/IMF or their banks collapse. All hail the democratically elected ECB and IMF officials....oh wait a minute

This is rather like me complaining about how undemocratic it is that my bank sets conditions on loaning me cash or setting up an overdraft.

[DaveO]

Re: Euro Crisis Revived With Yet Another EU Buggle : Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:17 pm  

Kosh wrote: Nonetheless, the German finance minister and the IMF wanted depositors with less than 100k Euros exempted from any levy as they considered this to be in conflict with the guarantee. The Cypriot government decided differently in an attempt to mollify their Russian paymasters. That's as maybe but it doesn't alter the fact the Germans are ultimately behind the raids on deposits and I am sure not everyone on Cyprus who has more than 100K is a member of the Russian mafia. Not to blame for depositors with less than 100k Euros being part of the deal. I never contested the point that Cyprus was required to contribute. It's not just the Germans who have these concerns. The German public certainly wouldn't. The German government has stated that it's up to Cyprus where the 6bn Euro comes from. The actions of German government and the opinions of the German people are linked you know and it is German public opinion is driving its government to insist on a bailout structured as it is. They may not be the only ones to have the view of money laundering in Cyprus but it is most certainly a big political issue in Germany and Merkel is not going to ignore public opinion about the issue and agree to a bailout of a full 16bn loan with elections coming up. It is naive to think otherwise. As to the 6bn being founded from deposits the troika are as responsible for that as anyone. Here is Dijsselbloems, the Eurogroup president, opinion on the matter "The levy I can strongly defend, because it is a direct way to ask a contribution of the deposits of the banking sector in Cyprus, which is inevitable if you want to a build a package which doesn't bring more loans and more debt to Cyprus than the 10 billion (euros) I mentioned before." From here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/21/eurozone-cyprus-eurogroup-idUSL6N0CD30520130321 Now that just mentions its a better way to do it than borrowing more but everyone knows the politics behind it which are primarily those of German reluctance to fully fund loans for the the reasons already mentioned. He does also say its better if larger depositors pay more but that still means a raid on deposits which is wrong in principle IMO. This is rather like me complaining about how undemocratic it is that my bank sets conditions on loaning me cash or setting up an overdraft. Nothing like it at all. Here they are going against the principle that they themselves came up with that bond holders not savers suffer when banks fail and they are doing it for no other reason than German politics. It also sets a precedent that unelected bodies like the ECB can simply make things up as they go along. How secure do you think savers in other countries feel as a result?

Kosh wrote: Nonetheless, the German finance minister and the IMF wanted depositors with less than 100k Euros exempted from any levy as they considered this to be in conflict with the guarantee. The Cypriot government decided differently in an attempt to mollify their Russian paymasters. That's as maybe but it doesn't alter the fact the Germans are ultimately behind the raids on deposits and I am sure not everyone on Cyprus who has more than 100K is a member of the Russian mafia. Not to blame for depositors with less than 100k Euros being part of the deal. I never contested the point that Cyprus was required to contribute. It's not just the Germans who have these concerns. The German public certainly wouldn't. The German government has stated that it's up to Cyprus where the 6bn Euro comes from. The actions of German government and the opinions of the German people are linked you know and it is German public opinion is driving its government to insist on a bailout structured as it is. They may not be the only ones to have the view of money laundering in Cyprus but it is most certainly a big political issue in Germany and Merkel is not going to ignore public opinion about the issue and agree to a bailout of a full 16bn loan with elections coming up. It is naive to think otherwise. As to the 6bn being founded from deposits the troika are as responsible for that as anyone. Here is Dijsselbloems, the Eurogroup president, opinion on the matter "The levy I can strongly defend, because it is a direct way to ask a contribution of the deposits of the banking sector in Cyprus, which is inevitable if you want to a build a package which doesn't bring more loans and more debt to Cyprus than the 10 billion (euros) I mentioned before." From here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/21/eurozone-cyprus-eurogroup-idUSL6N0CD30520130321 Now that just mentions its a better way to do it than borrowing more but everyone knows the politics behind it which are primarily those of German reluctance to fully fund loans for the the reasons already mentioned. He does also say its better if larger depositors pay more but that still means a raid on deposits which is wrong in principle IMO. This is rather like me complaining about how undemocratic it is that my bank sets conditions on loaning me cash or setting up an overdraft. Nothing like it at all. Here they are going against the principle that they themselves came up with that bond holders not savers suffer when banks fail and they are doing it for no other reason than German politics. It also sets a precedent that unelected bodies like the ECB can simply make things up as they go along. How secure do you think savers in other countries feel as a result?