Re: Austerity gone too far? : Wed May 01, 2013 9:31 am  

DaveO wrote:

... What I don't get is what someone else mentioned is that when it's easy to see such obvious things like this is why Labour don't directly challenge the spin. In this example they don't even have to say they are opposed to tuition fee increases (though I wish they would) but to simply point out forcefully that the way the change was being sold was deliberately misleading and deliberately divisive. They would then be able to question the motive for the change. Is it really austerity or the privatisation of higher education?...

Indeed, I don't know why they don't.
One of Blair's pre-election successes was the so-called "Rebuttal Unit", set up at Millbank to knock-back Conservative accusations of uncosted spending and to challenge/disprove fuzzy promises/predictions/claims of success from the Conservatives.
If set up again, once the press knew of it they'd be phoning it all the time.

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Wed May 01, 2013 12:47 pm  

The Video Ref wrote:

Spend more than earn = bad.

Earn more than spend = good.

That seems to be the basic concept behind it. But we all knew that anyway.

Austerity measures mean that over 25% of the working population in Spain is on the dole.

What is the economy of Spain spending on them and their families to stop them from starving?

What is the economy of Spain earning from this 25% of what could be productive workers?

What is the economy of Spain earning extra from sales tax etc by reason of these people having a hugely reduced disposable income?

As businesses wither and die for lack of customers with money, what is the economy of Spain earning as this infrastructure collapses in a heap?

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Wed May 01, 2013 1:02 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Austerity measures mean that over 25% of the working population in Spain is on the dole.

What is the economy of Spain spending on them and their families to stop them from starving?

What is the economy of Spain earning from this 25% of what could be productive workers?

What is the economy of Spain earning extra from sales tax etc by reason of these people having a hugely reduced disposable income?

As businesses wither and die for lack of customers with money, what is the economy of Spain earning as this infrastructure collapses in a heap?

But is not all that a direct result of a nation previously living above its productive means? EU subsidiay, piggy backing on Germany's strong currency, artificially high wages, cheap credit, property bubble. Isn't this just the awful reality of all those "good" years coming home to roost? All this talk of a choice between "austerity" and "growth" is utter nonsense.

The so called "growth" strategy of paying people artificially high wages (often to do artificial jobs) and providing them with easy spending power is what lead to the financial crisis. It has been tried and failed on a monumental scale.

People's thinking needs to move beyond the inane and think of how to tackle the reality. That's one of the reasons why Labour will lose the next election - they have no strategy for the UK that will stand up to the public's scrutiny.

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Wed May 01, 2013 2:02 pm  

Dally wrote:

People's thinking needs to move beyond the inane and think of how to tackle the reality. That's one of the reasons why Labour will lose the next election - they have no strategy for the UK that will stand up to the public's scrutiny.

And that's where it all falls down. The public, such as they are, are more interested in who the douche from One Direction is shagging at the moment and doesn't Kate look great now she's pregnant etc, than the realities of sorting out the mess the banks left us with. The public's scrutiny will be like the blind leading the blind (if there was any scrutiny worth the name now, Gideon's plans would be toast).

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Wed May 01, 2013 2:12 pm  

Dally wrote:

... All this talk of a choice between "austerity" and "growth" is utter nonsense...

I'm sorry Dally but I've run out of patience with your (probably deliberate) missing of the point.

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Wed May 01, 2013 3:08 pm  

Chris28 wrote:

And that's where it all falls down. The public, such as they are, are more interested in who the douche from One Direction is shagging at the moment and doesn't Kate look great now she's pregnant etc, than the realities of sorting out the mess the banks left us with. The public's scrutiny will be like the blind leading the blind (if there was any scrutiny worth the name now, Gideon's plans would be toast).

Apart from a bit about it raining on polling day and Emmerdale and Corry are on so not even bothering to cast a vote anyway, that is pretty spot on.

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Wed May 01, 2013 3:25 pm  

Dally wrote:

But is not all that a direct result of a nation previously living above its productive means?

No.

Dally wrote:

People's thinking needs to move beyond the inane and think of how to tackle the reality.

Great. When will you start?

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Wed May 01, 2013 4:57 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

No.

So, you must be arguing that Spain's "growing" economy was sustainable in its previous form. If that was the case why the austerity now, why isn't it still powering ahead and recruiting unemployed people from other EU member states?

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Wed May 01, 2013 8:11 pm  

Dally wrote:

So, you must be arguing that Spain's "growing" economy was sustainable in its previous form. If that was the case why the austerity now, why isn't it still powering ahead and recruiting unemployed people from other EU member states?

It was sustainable pre-crash. GDP was growing slowly but steadily. Unemployment was falling slowly but steadily. Govt debt to GDP was falling significantly. Then the crash hit and the inability to print money and devalue their currency combined with falling domestic demand due to the crash and austerity measures has led to the current problem.

Re: Austerity gone too far? : Wed May 01, 2013 8:31 pm  

Him wrote:

It was sustainable pre-crash. GDP was growing slowly but steadily. Unemployment was falling slowly but steadily. Govt debt to GDP was falling significantly. Then the crash hit and the inability to print money and devalue their currency combined with falling domestic demand due to the crash and austerity measures has led to the current problem.

So there property prices were sustainable? This crash of which you speak is not something divorced from the "real" economy. It occurred because the real economy of the "Western" world was a basket case.