Re: Greed is good; envy is an economic driver : Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:04 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Still no answers and he's still around?

Well they can never actually answer anything can they? Sal's disappeared, Lord Elpers appears to have popped his clogs, and Ajw is avoiding saying anything he can't copy & paste from Wikipedia.

Re: Greed is good; envy is an economic driver : Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:17 pm  

Some of those Daily Mail types that are always complaining about how public sector pay and pensions are higher than those in the private sector should listen to these words and stop moaning.

Its pure market forces if the public sector offers the best salaries then it attracts the best people, the IQ elites that Boris was talking about. Rather than complaining about this those in the private sector should pull up their socks and try and improve their IQs so they can compete for jobs in the public sector.

If you're the type that says "I work 50 hours a week in the private sector and I'm not rich blah blah" there's probably a simple explanation, you are thick as pigpoop and market forces have meant you found your level.

Re: Greed is good; envy is an economic driver : Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:29 pm  

Him wrote:

Well they can never actually answer anything can they? Sal's disappeared, Lord Elpers appears to have popped his clogs, and Ajw is avoiding saying anything he can't copy & paste from Wikipedia.

Oh Ajw71's disappeared again.

The questions must have been too difficult.

Re: Greed is good; envy is an economic driver : Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:03 am  

Mintball wrote:

You mentioned unions so let's respond to that.

Now, perhaps you'll answer the question of how much a "supposed socialist" should expect in pay. You didn't last time and dodged around it by providing half a definition of socialist, as though that came close to answering the question you won't answer. It didn't.

Perhaps this time you'll root out the book of pay scales for "supposed socialists".

Interesting to see that you think that a union should not try, as an employer, to act the way that it expects other employers to act, but to actually behave, as an employer, in a way that it fights against. In other words, you want it to operate double standards.

And trade unions have elected general secretaries, so the membership do have the chance to do something about it. That's called democracy.

On Npower: if it's struggling so much that it wants to take jobs away from this country so that it can pay much, much lower wages in a country where the cost of living is much lower, then it is entirely apt to ask if the boss is chipping in with moves to reduce the wage bill – because that's all it is. And after all, if profits had fallen, it would illustrate a bit of failure at the top, wouldn't it, probably more so than among those back-room staff who are set to lose their jobs?

Clue: Npower is not struggling – it made £176m in operating profits in the first part of this year alone.

Such big corporates are greedy – and as a result of their greed, people get shafted. But then you'll be squealing for the people who are chucked out of jobs to be finding work instantly or having any benefits slashed, because obviously there are loads of jobs out there etc.

And as for the 'politics of envy', you do pretty well yourself: whinging and whining about how your boss won't give you a pay rise, but complaining also at any group of workers who dare to fight for one – oh dear, they should put up and shut up, just like you.

Once again you are very particular about which points that you choose to respond on!!

I have never complained about my bosses giving me a pay rise - so please don't misquote me. I have a choice - no body forces me to work for them if I was so unhappy I would find another job - and there are plenty of jobs out there if you look hard enough. As you quite rightly say that's democracy!!

NPower is doing what any responsible company should do - it is looking to maximise returns for its investors. Perhaps if the union were prepared to engage in process improvements and cost reduction ideas then shifting stuff to India might not be quite the attractive proposition it is? The problem is the union cannot engage for fear of setting a position in one chapel that could be rolled out to others - sad really, the members are just pawns in a bigger game. My wife worked at Morrisons and her whole department was transferred to Wiprow in India so we have so experience of this. She found another job - one of three she could have taken - as did virtually everyone in her department - there is work out there it is a myth that there are no jobs.

In 2012 NPower made 320m on a turnover close to 7bn so 5% is that excessive?

I ask again - what do you consider a reasonable return for any commercial enterprise to make.

You want a rise in the living wage - I agree - so why not swap employers NI for increased minimum wage?

Finally the reason I don't respond is not because I can't fight my corner it is because I have a life that doesn't solely revolve around spending every waking hour on a message board - unlike some.

Re: Greed is good; envy is an economic driver : Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:08 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Once again you are very particular about which points that you choose to respond on!!

I have never complained about my bosses giving me a pay rise - so please don't misquote me. I have a choice - no body forces me to work for them if I was so unhappy I would find another job - and there are plenty of jobs out there if you look hard enough. As you quite rightly say that's democracy!!

NPower is doing what any responsible company should do - it is looking to maximise returns for its investors. Perhaps if the union were prepared to engage in process improvements and cost reduction ideas then shifting stuff to India might not be quite the attractive proposition it is? The problem is the union cannot engage for fear of setting a position in one chapel that could be rolled out to others - sad really, the members are just pawns in a bigger game. My wife worked at Morrisons and her whole department was transferred to Wiprow in India so we have so experience of this. She found another job - one of three she could have taken - as did virtually everyone in her department - there is work out there it is a myth that there are no jobs.

In 2012 NPower made 320m on a turnover close to 7bn so 5% is that excessive?

I ask again - what do you consider a reasonable return for any commercial enterprise to make.

You want a rise in the living wage - I agree - so why not swap employers NI for increased minimum wage?

Finally the reason I don't respond is not because I can't fight my corner it is because I have a life that doesn't solely revolve around spending every waking hour on a message board - unlike some.

How do you propose the exchequer make up the shortfall in Employers' NI? Scrapping it to enable payment of a living wage would simply be yet another case of the taxpayer subsidising delinquent employers

Re: Greed is good; envy is an economic driver : Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:24 am  

cod'ead wrote:

How do you propose the exchequer make up the shortfall in Employers' NI? Scrapping it to enable payment of a living wage would simply be yet another case of the taxpayer subsidising delinquent employers

Where does the money come from to pay income support? taxation - do you know if the revenues from employers NI is lower than the monies paid out in income support? Unlikely - although I don't know - raising the minimum wage by 14% would be a huge vote winner as would scrapping employers NI so why not do it? Logically monies received from employers NI is much higher than the cost of income support for lower paid employees. All you would be doing is cutting out huge rafts of people employed to re-distribute the funds.

The idea that governments are financially supporting big business is a myth and no one on here has yet conclusively proved the case.

Re: Greed is good; envy is an economic driver : Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:30 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Once again you are very particular about which points that you choose to respond on!!

In least I make responses.

Sal Paradise wrote:

I have never complained about my bosses giving me a pay rise - so please don't misquote me...

Yes you have. You've done a routine of: 'I haven't had a pay rise for three years, in The Real World', so why should anyone else – particularly those in the public services, which are not The Real World anyway'. (I remember your being challenged particularly over the last bit of that: strangely, you never did respond to being asked whether you really thought that police and teachers and nurses etc didn't work in 'The Real World')

Sal Paradise wrote:

... there are plenty of jobs out there if you look hard enough ...

Yes. Of course there are. There are far more jobs available than people out of work – they're just too lazy and the stats are all a lie.

Sal Paradise wrote:

... NPower is doing what any responsible company should do - it is looking to maximise returns for its investors. Perhaps if the union were prepared to engage in process improvements and cost reduction ideas then shifting stuff to India might not be quite the attractive proposition it is? The problem is the union cannot engage for fear of setting a position in one chapel that could be rolled out to others - sad really, the members are just pawns in a bigger game...

You've already been picked up for posting inaccurately about this.

But let's run with your explanation of why this is a good thing and why increased profits matter more than people. Do you have one?

Sal Paradise wrote:

... My wife worked at Morrisons and her whole department was transferred to Wiprow in India so we have so experience of this ...

And you sat there and applauded and told her this was the way The Real World works and jolly good it is too, because she is less important than Morrisons improving profits.

Sal Paradise wrote:

... She found another job - one of three she could have taken - as did virtually everyone in her department - there is work out there it is a myth that there are no jobs...

Yes. We know. The figures are a lie. You keep pretending this, but with no fact-based evidence to show it.

Sal Paradise wrote:

... In 2012 NPower made 320m on a turnover close to 7bn so 5% is that excessive?

Nobody has said that it is. If, however, the company then says: 'oh, we're going to shaft some people because it isn't enough', then it's immoral.

Sal Paradise wrote:

I ask again - what do you consider a reasonable return for any commercial enterprise to make.

I ask again: what pay should a "supposed socialist" get for what job?

Sal Paradise wrote:

... You want a rise in the living wage - I agree - so why not swap employers NI for increased minimum wage?

Why pander to profitable companies, by, in one way or another, having the taxpayer subsidise their profits?

Sal Paradise wrote:

Finally the reason I don't respond is not because I can't fight my corner it is because I have a life that doesn't solely revolve around spending every waking hour on a message board - unlike some.

So do others. Y'know, work and things like that. You find time to comment when you want – and then appear selective when challenged.

Re: Greed is good; envy is an economic driver : Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:35 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

... The idea that governments are financially supporting big business is a myth and no one on here has yet conclusively proved the case.

Don't be daft.

A profitable company should not need to rely on government (ie the taxpayer) to top up wages that do not allow its employees a basic quality of life.

It's quite simple. If they do not pay a living wage, they are relying on the taxpayer to make up low pay – and ensure that their own employees, who contribute to their profits, can do so without having, for instance, to live on the street or go hungry, neither of which would be conducive to continued productivity and profits.

As has been said, the likes of KPMG are evangelical about the living wage now because it works – it improves productivity, recruitment and retention, and cuts sickness. But it involves a company stopping regarding employees as simply a cost to be cut, and seeing them as an investment. But that means stopping thinking in the shortest possible terms.

And in the meantime, the taxpayer foots the bill of those employees being able to continue to go to work. That is a subsidy – pure and simple.

Re: Greed is good; envy is an economic driver : Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:05 pm  

Mintball wrote:

As has been said, the likes of KPMG are evangelical about the living wage now because it works – it improves productivity, recruitment and retention, and cuts sickness. But it involves a company stopping regarding employees as simply a cost to be cut, and seeing them as an investment. But that means stopping thinking in the shortest possible terms.

There is another angle to all of this though and so just to play devils avocado for a moment the example of KPMG as a Living Wage employer is very admirable but let's be honest here, the vast majority of their employees would not be minimum wage slaves anyway and the same goes for many employers in the legal and accountancy world, yes they will employ cleaners and possibly catering staff who are always ideal targets for paying peanuts to but joining any of those businesses as a bottom rung trainee lawyer/accountant etc is USUALLY not a minimum wage job, both of my daughters work in a large legal practice, one with a degree and one "just" in admin, both are on what I consider to be decent wages for their ages, no negotiation required, that was the rate for the job, far above NMW or Living Wage.

The real target for Living Wage rates is what was traditionally called "unskilled" but now isn't necessarily limited to that description, hotel working, warehouse jobs, supermarkets, social care etc there is a definite demarcation between what is regarded as manual labour (in a derisory way) and "white collar", unfortunately those manual tasks are also the ones where the employee has to take whatever the employer hands to them in terms of shifts and daily hours (or not), if you're caught in that trap (and it may suit some lifestyles) then its fine while you're young and living in shared rented accommodation or with parents but in reality your prospects of leading what we regard as a "normal" adult life are pretty slim really.

Re: Greed is good; envy is an economic driver : Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:33 pm  

I don't disagree at all (not very effective DA stuff, then. ).

But all these companies need, say, cleaners.

Some of the most derided of the entire workforce, yet try operating without them. Anywhere the public actually visited – shops, restaurants etc – would go out of business before long. So just as with any other employee, the cleaner contributes to the success or otherwise of a business.

While a company the size of KPMG may not have many staff (including contracted staff) on less than the living wage, it's that attitude again of short-termism that exists on a wide scale in business (certainly in the UK) whereby any cost cutting is good, even if it's slashing wages (apart from management wages) or keeping people on poverty pay and allowing/expecting the taxpayer to make up the difference so that said employee is fit, fed and healthy enough to attend work, let alone actually be productive.

So even if it affects a small percentage of KPMG staff, what is particularly heartening is just a slight move away from thinking in such a short-term manner.