Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:34 pm  

Him wrote: Yep. I find the Germans anger on Greece bizarre. They have benefitted hugely from the Euro and are principal movers in the expansion of the Eurozone, including the stupid rules that mean a new entrant to the EU has to become part of the Eurozone. Germany has to realise if it wants the benefits of the expanded Eurozone it has to take the downsides too, including sometimes bailing out less productive areas of the currency union. The same as the UK has to, just in a different, more integrated way. Germany might have an argument if they ever get around to repaying the money loaned to them by Greece during WW2 Quite staggering hypocrisy

Him wrote: Yep. I find the Germans anger on Greece bizarre. They have benefitted hugely from the Euro and are principal movers in the expansion of the Eurozone, including the stupid rules that mean a new entrant to the EU has to become part of the Eurozone. Germany has to realise if it wants the benefits of the expanded Eurozone it has to take the downsides too, including sometimes bailing out less productive areas of the currency union. The same as the UK has to, just in a different, more integrated way. Germany might have an argument if they ever get around to repaying the money loaned to them by Greece during WW2 Quite staggering hypocrisy

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:46 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

I think we really do need to stop using jargon such as "austerity" and start calling it for what it has always been - just another means of wealth redistribution.

The goal is to exchange the assets of the state (ALL states) for the debt of trans-national capital. Breaking the power of states has been the goal since the death of FDR's "New Deal". States are the only entities with the power (legal and military) to curb the excesses of capital. A state saddled with crippling debt has no power.

The final stage will be the privatization of the military. Once that happens - the game will be up.

The USA has crippling debt but still huge power, which it wields internationally in an almost Orwellian way in order to benefit its businesses.

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:21 pm  

Dally wrote:

The USA has crippling debt but still huge power, which it wields internationally in an almost Orwellian way in order to benefit its businesses.

The US admittedly possesses the most powerful army on the planet. Indeed, it now spends more on defence than at any point during the Cold War - when the opponent (if significantly overblown by the US' own analysts - see Paul Wolfowitz and Team B) really could deliver a smack in the mouth. However, in order to finance these pork barrel projects successive administrations from Reagan have had to cut further and further into the bone. Americans are poorer now than they've been since before the depression.

It doesn't take a genius to realise that this is totally unsustainable. At some point investment will have to fall. And fall in a big way - unless a miracle occurs and somehow they can refloat American manufacturing with all the money they've syphoned out of the country over the last twenty years.

When Donald Rumsfeld arrived at the Pentagon for his first day as secretary of defence he corralled the staff into the central meeting room and then stunned them with the claim that they were facing a new and insidious threat the likes of which they had never seen. Bottom lips soon smacked off the floor tiles when they discovered this new "enemy" was themselves. Rumsfeld was openly declaring war on the Pentagon! From the outset he slashed whole groups of jobs claiming that the Pentagon was drowning in a sea of bureaucracy. He then opened the military up to the opening round of privatisation. First there came small tactical support units (mostly paramilitary spec-ops). Next to be replaced was the support infrastructure - gleefully picked up by his Halliburton chums (because a Big Mac bought from a Halliburton unit is cheaper than a Big Mac bought from the US Army - or not). Then came "Blackwater" and host of abuses that followed. Then a multi-phased rollout of "off the books" black operators (the history of which you can find between the works of the now sadly - and conveniently - deceased Rolling Stone columnist, Michael Hastings, and "Dirty Wars" creator - Jeremy Scahill). Today privatisation has eaten a good deal out of the US military. And let's not forget the host of para-military police units roaming the streets with the kind of weaponry which might give the Germans defending the Normandy beach cause for concern. This is despite the demonstrable fact that violent crime has been falling in the US for years.

Was Rumsfeld aimlessly reacting to the political realities of the time - or did he have a plan from the outset?

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:43 pm  

If you have the nerve, and the desire and an open mind (hard for some, but then you never know) read The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein (ISBN 978-0-141-02453-0).

We live in interesting times.

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:49 pm  

Leaguefan wrote:

If you have the nerve, and the desire and an open mind (hard for some, but then you never know) read The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein (ISBN 978-0-141-02453-0).

I've read it. I agree with her on the broad points. But Klein is another one of these weird faux-liberals who on the one hand think the likes of Rumsfeld & Cheney are perfectly capable of deliberately fomenting civil war in Iraq, pitting Shia against Sunni in a classic divide-and-conquer tactic straight out of the Julius Caeser handbook (resulting in the deaths of thousands of Iraqis and American servicemen) and yet finds the idea that the very same might have engineered 9/11 in the first place completely inconceivable.

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:16 pm  

It appears one of the problems of the Greek economy is the lack of a meaningful manufacturing base.

I struggling to see how the new government will correctly address this dire situation? The days of most citizens - government big wigs excluded - being happy with a Moskvich etc. appear to be a distant memory.

[DaveO]

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:07 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

It appears one of the problems of the Greek economy is the lack of a meaningful manufacturing base.

As a percentage of GDP Greek manufacturing was 14% of GDP (ours is 12%). They are the third largest manufacturer of marble for example so they do have some manufacturing.

They also have the worlds largest merchant navy and account for 15% of the world's tonnage shipped.

I struggling to see how the new government will correctly address this dire situation? The days of most citizens - government big wigs excluded - being happy with a Moskvich etc. appear to be a distant memory.

Well like us they don't rely on manufacturing to drive the economy but services (which includes the shipping). If they are stuffed so are we.

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:31 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

It appears one of the problems of the Greek economy is the lack of a meaningful manufacturing base.

I struggling to see how the new government will correctly address this dire situation? The days of most citizens - government big wigs excluded - being happy with a Moskvich etc. appear to be a distant memory.

No, the major problem with the Greek economy is the systemic corruption at the top of society and the reluctance of the oligarchs to contribute to their own society through taxation.

Not too dissimilar to our own problems really

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:41 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

No, the major problem with the Greek economy is the systemic corruption at the top of society and the reluctance of the oligarchs to contribute to their own society through taxation.

Not too dissimilar to our own problems really

...and the pleasure that many individuals take in not declaring at least some income for tax, particularly those based in tourism, especially those based in cash transactions, and frankly I don't blame them.

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:10 pm  

Whatever Greece was doing wasn't working. You get the feeling that the newly elected leadership are genuinely going to try something else. It's an interesting concept, elect a government that will actually do something different, not effectively claim it can do exactly the same as the last one but just a bit better.

If I were an ordinary Greek I would tell the Germans to go **** themselves. They only bankrolled the Greek bailout to protect their f*****g stupid Euro anyway. A single currency with the same value across vastly different economies is frankly rediculous. It's right the Germans should pump money into Greece, if you want a single currency then you should have a single economy- and that means they all stand or fall together.

Should be interesting.