Re: More Tory Lies : Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:55 pm  

IR80 wrote:

Even more codswallop!

It's your own reply that is codswallop.
You appear so utterly brainwashed by the Tory press that you can no longer recognise fact from fiction.
Please explain which part of my post is codswallop.

Just because it isn't what you believe, doesn.t make it wrong. Btw, the Earth is not flat

Re: More Tory Lies : Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:02 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

You are an extremely forgiving person.
Firstly, Boris and his friends in the ERG could have helped ensure that May's deal got through and then, having ensured that May had to go, he PROMISED, DO OR DIE, that we would be out at the end of October, in the full knowledge of how parliament was paralysed and now, he is trying to do EXACTLY the same as Mrs May and go for a quick land grab so that the can DICTATE his own laws.

100 years since the first remembrance service and our fractured country, along with parts of Europe is moving ever further to the right and it does seem that some people have indeed "forgotten" how dangerous the extremists actually are.

We have Trump in the states, looking after the "Whites" first and a racist xenophobic Prime Minister over here already walking uncomfortably with Trumps hand very firmly up his backside.

Already, we are leaving our kids in a position where they will be financially less well off than their parents and now we give them Trump and Johnson.

200+ Labour MPs didn't vote for May's deal that is the major reason it didn't go through - you can't absolve them - their red lines amounted to remain and everyone knew that it was disingenuous to suggest Labour were interested in any kind of leave.

May had a choice - her majority was only 17 so hardly huge - Johnson didn't have a majority at all so Parliament could function that manifested itself the Benn act which basically wrecked his negotiating position.

We look in China, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, most of Africa etc where hard left policies don't really serve the freedom of the population and these are countries where Corbyn takes his influence. If you look at blood shed the likes of Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Castro have killed far more in the name of left wing dictatorships than anything undertaken by the far right.

Trump is interested in America first - he is antidote to Obama - who was a disaster as president possibly the worst in the last 100 years - American's hate Socialists.

What will make kids worse off is a Corbyn government - the scary bit is that him and McDonald and especially their sponsor Lansman just want to trial a government dominated economy its a game - there isn't an economy including China that doesn't give business the necessary room to breath that benefits its citizen's standard of living. Corbyn will kill business and he will raise taxes for ordinary citizens

Re: More Tory Lies : Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:02 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

200+ Labour MPs didn't vote for May's deal that is the major reason it didn't go through - you can't absolve them - their red lines amounted to remain and everyone knew that it was disingenuous to suggest Labour were interested in any kind of leave.

And again with the distortion of history.
It's
not
the
opposition's
job
to
vote
through
government
policy.

When will you Tories ever take any responsibility for anything? You had a majority, you negotiated a pretty hard, Tory-style Brexit. Too many of you voted against it to get it through. Your reason: "it's the opposition's fault". It's tedious and the sad thing is some voters actually believe it.

Re: More Tory Lies : Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:03 pm  

King Street Cat wrote:

You dismiss everything everyone says. What do YOU think will happen?

I think we've established by now that thinking is not IR80's strong suit.

Re: More Tory Lies : Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:17 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

And again with the distortion of history.
It's
not
the
opposition's
job
to
vote
through
government
policy.

When will you Tories ever take any responsibility for anything? You had a majority, you negotiated a pretty hard, Tory-style Brexit. Too many of you voted against it to get it through. Your reason: "it's the opposition's fault". It's tedious and the sad thing is some voters actually believe it.

Yet the opposition campaigned on respecting the referendum - your absolution of the Labour party is simply getting repetitive and shows your blinkered view of the whole Brexit argument. Labour's red lines were so close to remain i.e. staying in the single market and the customs union and allowing the EU to determine our laws on workers rights and our laws on climate policy as well consumer rights whatever deal had been negotiated Labour would never have voted for it. You know it and so does the electorate.

Re: More Tory Lies : Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:20 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

I think we've established by now that thinking is not IR80's strong suit.

Bile and insults are certainly top of your repotoire!

Anyway, I'm going for some chlorinated chicken whilst you go and warm up the next serving of codswallop between you and drownedpuss.

Re: More Tory Lies : Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:30 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Yet the opposition campaigned on respecting the referendum - your absolution of the Labour party is simply getting repetitive and shows your blinkered view of the whole Brexit argument. Labour's red lines were so close to remain i.e. staying in the single market and the customs union and allowing the EU to determine our laws on workers rights and our laws on climate policy as well consumer rights whatever deal had been negotiated Labour would never have voted for it. You know it and so does the electorate.

Brexit is a Tory project. How about your party takes some responsibility for the chaos it has caused rather than blaming everyone else all the time.

Re: More Tory Lies : Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:35 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

200+ Labour MPs didn't vote for May's deal that is the major reason it didn't go through - you can't absolve them - their red lines amounted to remain and everyone knew that it was disingenuous to suggest Labour were interested in any kind of leave.

Sorry Sal but, whatever you may think, it is the fault of the Tory leadership and THEIR version of Brexit that has been at fault.
We've had this conversation so many times already but the only way to have "got Brexit done" would have been to gain cross party support immediately following the result of the referendum.
However, what e saw was Cameron stepping down and May most certainly trying to do things her own way, not even bothering to take account of anyone else's views and in those circumstances, why on earth should the opposition MP actually try and help ?
There should have been common ground sought and agreed upon and than taken forward on a "free vote".
Whatever happened to Canada + or a Norway + deal ?? and just what consideration was N. Ireland ever given.

The whole "we won" and "you lost" ethos, in a vote where of those who bothered to vote, the result was 48.1 vs 51.9%, as close to 50/50 as you were ever likely to get and yet, those who voted remain or didn't vote were utterly dismissed.

A clever leader would have carried the country with them post the result but, not here, and many peoples views have become ever further entrenched..

Bright politicians may have tried to find a unique type of customs union to solve the issue but, alas, this was never considered, despite the fact that this could have been "sold" to the majority of voters and although there may still have been a minority of unhappy people, this would have offered compromise to allow the UK to move forward and protected "the Union".

The ERG would have been unhappy and maybe the left of the Labour party but, the vast majority would have been ok.

Water under the bridge now and all of our futures look less prosperous by the day, which I just dont believe is what too many people wanted or why they voted "leave".

Re: More Tory Lies : Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:37 am  

Cronus wrote:

But he still had to work for his impressive academic achievements and to get where he is today.

You smack of envy, nothing more.

I never said he wasn't intelligent, well read and clever and i'm certainly not envious of a bloke who stabbed his predecessor in the back then dismantled his own working majority after lying to the queen and trying to 'RAM RAID" brexit through by "bending" the law.

Re: More Tory Lies : Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:21 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Sorry Sal but, whatever you may think, it is the fault of the Tory leadership and THEIR version of Brexit that has been at fault.
We've had this conversation so many times already but the only way to have "got Brexit done" would have been to gain cross party support immediately following the result of the referendum.
However, what e saw was Cameron stepping down and May most certainly trying to do things her own way, not even bothering to take account of anyone else's views and in those circumstances, why on earth should the opposition MP actually try and help ?
There should have been common ground sought and agreed upon and than taken forward on a "free vote".
Whatever happened to Canada + or a Norway + deal ?? and just what consideration was N. Ireland ever given.

The whole "we won" and "you lost" ethos, in a vote where of those who bothered to vote, the result was 48.1 vs 51.9%, as close to 50/50 as you were ever likely to get and yet, those who voted remain or didn't vote were utterly dismissed.

A clever leader would have carried the country with them post the result but, not here, and many peoples views have become ever further entrenched..

Bright politicians may have tried to find a unique type of customs union to solve the issue but, alas, this was never considered, despite the fact that this could have been "sold" to the majority of voters and although there may still have been a minority of unhappy people, this would have offered compromise to allow the UK to move forward and protected "the Union".

The ERG would have been unhappy and maybe the left of the Labour party but, the vast majority would have been ok.

Water under the bridge now and all of our futures look less prosperous by the day, which I just dont believe is what too many people wanted or why they voted "leave".

I agree with your point - the problem was even on day 1 a big chunk of MPs across the spectrum were saying the vote needed overturning. There was no way to gain cross party support for an exit when 70% of all MPs wanted to remain. It is like Labour now - how can they have any credible discussions with the EU when all they want is to remain?

Labour's view was so close to remain as being the in with no influence - that simply would wash with the electorate. May was a terrible negotiator and the fine detail was done by civil servants who again didn't want to leave - the deal had no chance. May had no majority it was a disaster waiting to happen and it did.