Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:50 am  

Rock God X wrote:

One person's fervent belief/delusion does not constitute evidence. There are people in mental hospitals the world over who believe that they are Napoleon/Elvis/Florence Nightingale just as strongly as you believe that Jesus exists. The strength of their belief does not prove to anyone other than themselves that what they're saying is true.

Let me ask you a very important question -

Have you been filled with the Spirit?

If not, then you are by no means qualified to judge the experience of those who have been born again in Christ. I know I have everlasting life through Jesus as well as I know that this computer in front of me exists.

You (naively) place your faith in science and rubbish the spiritual experience of others. However you fail to realise that you interpret science in the exact same way we experience God – you use your senses. You observe results. We observe Jesus. Scientific results can be replicated by others. The gifts of the Spirit can be replicated by others.

Can you tell me why your sensual responses to scientific evidence are any different to my sensual responses to God?

Let's assume for a second that there is conclusive proof of a man named Jesus who lived in Nazareth around 2,000 years ago, upon whose life/teachings the Christian religion is founded. No such proof exists, but I'm willing to overlook that fact for the sake of argument. Proof that Jesus the man existed still wouldn't be proof that he was the Son of God, that he performed any of his impressive parlour tricks, or that he was born of a virgin mother. It most certainly wouldn't prove the existence of God. Does the fact that we can prove L. Ron Hubbard's existence mean that Scientology is true?

Can you explain the explosion of the early church? Why the Apostles agreed to forsake their lives if Jesus was not the Son of God? Why the tomb was empty? Where Jesus’ body went?

What surrounds us has been shown by science not to have been created in anything like the way The Bible describes. Evolution, to take but one example, is a hard fact. All of the available evidence supports it. Man being created by God, on the other hand, is not supported by a single shred of evidence. Your Bible is so far wide of the mark, it even states that God separated the light and the dark before he made the objects that actually emit light.

Evolution is not hard fact. Are you millions of years old? No? Well then you have no observed any kind of macro-evolution.

Your last comment is so lamentable it’s not worth replying to, though I will for the benefit of anyone with half a brain who is reading this.

If God is all-powerful, what makes you think that he needs to create a light source in order to create light?

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:52 am  

Rock God X wrote:

Sadly? If he has been such an 'enemy of God' surely Hell is the least he deserves?

You still don't get it.

We all deserve Hell. I deserve it as much as Hitchens. However I have the humility to see my wrongdoing and have placed my faith in Christ.

Hell is a terrible punishment. Jesus took our punishment for us, and remember how bad his death was! Therefore I would hate to see anyone go to Hell, including Hitchens.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:04 pm  

kirkstaller wrote:

You still don't get it.

We all deserve Hell. I deserve it as much as Hitchens. However I have the humility to see my wrongdoing and have placed my faith in Christ.

Hell is a terrible punishment. Jesus took our punishment for us, and remember how bad his death was! Therefore I would hate to see anyone go to Hell, including Hitchens.

Look, I dearly wish I could be with you when you pop your clogs, just to see the (metaphorical) look on your face when you realise that you've had your leg lifted. There is no heaven, there is no hell, there is nowhere for you to go because there will be no you. There will be some dead flesh & bones that will either be incinerated or left for carrion. Either way, you won't have to worry because you will be D E A D.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:22 pm  

kirkstaller wrote:

Let me ask you a very important question -

Have you been filled with the Spirit?

Occasionally, though I generally prefer beer.

kirkstaller wrote:

If not, then you are by no means qualified to judge the experience of those who have been born again in Christ. I know I have everlasting life through Jesus as well as I know that this computer in front of me exists.

Whether you think you know it or not, you are unable to prove it. Which is why I said your beliefs were lacking in any evidential foundation. If the only standard of proof we had to adhere to was "I believe it, therefore it's true", science would still be in the dark ages. And if that were the case, the computer in front of you wouldn't exist.

kirkstaller wrote:

You (naively) place your faith in science

I most assuredly do not. Science does not require faith, for it has evidence.

kirkstaller wrote:

and rubbish the spiritual experience of others. However you fail to realise that you interpret science in the exact same way we experience God – you use your senses. You observe results. We observe Jesus. Scientific results can be replicated by others. The gifts of the Spirit can be replicated by others.

Can you tell me why your sensual responses to scientific evidence are any different to my sensual responses to God?

Jesus Christ, is that the best argument you've got?

Scientific evidence is obtained through rigorous experiment and a stringent peer-review process. Hypotheses are tested and re-tested, refined and revised, before they are accepted as scientific theories. When new evidence comes to light that casts doubt upon a particular theory, scientists are willing to consider changing the theory if that evidence is proved to be reliable. Contrast this to your 'sensual responses to God'. You have decided without evidence that God exists. You therefore view and interpret everything through this particular lens. No amount of evidence will ever persuade you that God does not exist.

kirkstaller wrote:

Can you explain the explosion of the early church?

It suited those who were in positions of authority at the time. That's an over simplification, but it's nearer the truth than 'the explosion of the early church proves Jesus'/God's existence'.

kirkstaller wrote:

Why the Apostles agreed to forsake their lives if Jesus was not the Son of God?

We have no proof that Jesus even existed, but if he did, I refer you back to my previous answer about the mental patients. People believe all manner of crazy sh*t.

kirkstaller wrote:

Why the tomb was empty? Where Jesus’ body went?

It's a bloody story. We have no proof that Jesus existed, much less that he died, was placed in a tomb and then came back to life.

kirkstaller wrote:

Evolution is not hard fact.

Yes, it is. There is not a single recognised scientist alive who doesn't accept the theory of evolution. It is fact.

kirkstaller wrote:

Are you millions of years old? No? Well then you have no observed any kind of macro-evolution.

I don't have to be millions of years old. Are the Police present at every murder? Or do they collect evidence in order to build up a picture of what happened? There is massive, overwhelming evidence to support evolution. You would have to be a total idiot to doubt it.

kirkstaller wrote:

Your last comment is so lamentable it’s not worth replying to, though I will for the benefit of anyone with half a brain who is reading this.

If God is all-powerful, what makes you think that he needs to create a light source in order to create light?

Gotcha. So he could create light without a light source, but he decided that the Sun, Moon and stars would look a lot prettier than plain old boring 'light' and 'dark'.

Just think about what you're posting - just a little bit.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:26 pm  

kirkstaller wrote:

You still don't get it.

We all deserve Hell.

Speak for yourself. I'm a good person. I don't go out of my way to hurt others - sometimes I'll even go out of my way to help them. I don't cheat on my wife and I'm a good father to our son. I'm (usually) honest, I don't murder or rape, and I pay my taxes. I'm not perfect - none of us are - but I certainly don't deserve Hell. Which is fortunate, because I won't be going there.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:27 pm  

kirkstaller wrote:

Let me ask you a very important question -

Have you been filled with the Spirit?

If not, then you are by no means qualified to judge the experience of those who have been born again in Christ. I know I have everlasting life through Jesus as well as I know that this computer in front of me exists.

You (naively) place your faith in science and rubbish the spiritual experience of others. However you fail to realise that you interpret science in the exact same way we experience God – you use your senses. You observe results. We observe Jesus. Scientific results can be replicated by others. The gifts of the Spirit can be replicated by others.

Can you tell me why your sensual responses to scientific evidence are any different to my sensual responses to God?

Can you explain the explosion of the early church? Why the Apostles agreed to forsake their lives if Jesus was not the Son of God? Why the tomb was empty? Where Jesus’ body went?

Evolution is not hard fact. Are you millions of years old? No? Well then you have no observed any kind of macro-evolution.

Your last comment is so lamentable it’s not worth replying to, though I will for the benefit of anyone with half a brain who is reading this.

If God is all-powerful, what makes you think that he needs to create a light source in order to create light?

you are a first grade, bona-fide, nut job, someone in your family should have you sectioned for their own good, the princess didn't really sleep badly because of a pea, snow white didn't live with a bunch of vertically challenged miners and bo peep actually knew where all of her sheep where.

bat%4it lunacy, nothing more

and if I am wrong, I hope the hate-fuled vengeful "god" of yours strikes me down with a bolt of lightening.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:58 pm  

kirkstaller wrote:

Thanks, I've edited it now.

That quote is attributed to a very famous enemy of God. That individual will recently have had to give an account of himself. He will have had to explain his blasphemy, drunkenness, homosexual flings etc.

The Bible tells us that there is a Heaven and and Hell. I wonder which one he is in

Thanks for that.
But none of your ad hominem diatribe disproves or detracts from what he said, does it?

Your god created us all, gave us the power of reason but no evidence of his existence and, despite that, expects us to realise he does exist and, if we fail to recognise that, he will punish us.
He is omniscient, so he already knows what we will do but waits for us to do it before passing judgement on us.
He punished himself (in the form of his son) to free us from the inbuilt sinfulness that he gave us.
He is a gentle, loving being who will punish us dreadfully if we don't follow the rules that he didn't tell us about.

Is that a fair summary?

[Kosh]

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:23 pm  

kirkstaller wrote:

Evolution is not hard fact. Are you millions of years old? No? Well then you have no observed any kind of macro-evolution.

Not very good at science, are you?

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:36 pm  

Talking to kirkstaller always reminds me of that episode of Family Guy where Meg finds religion. Towards the end of the episode Meg and Brian are at a book burning and someone says, "We must burn all the books that are harmful to Christianity."

First on the fire is 'On The Origin Of Species', second is 'A Brief History Of Time', third is 'Logic For First-Graders'.

Re: Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools : Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:44 pm  

Occasionally, though I generally prefer beer.

Humorous, but you miss the point again.

Whether you think you know it or not, you are unable to prove it. Which is why I said your beliefs were lacking in any evidential foundation. If the only standard of proof we had to adhere to was "I believe it, therefore it's true", science would still be in the dark ages. And if that were the case, the computer in front of you wouldn't exist.

There is ample evidence, such as the evidence I cited in my previous response.

Look, I’m sure even you will admit that I’m not a complete idiot. I am an educated man and make a good living for myself. Do you think I’ve not looked at Christianity from a critical standpoint? Of course I have, and I believe that the evidence points to a world which has been created.

I most assuredly do not. Science does not require faith, for it has evidence.

You have faith in the men in white coats who tell you what to think.

You have faith in your senses to interpret scientific data correctly.

Scientific evidence is obtained through rigorous experiment and a stringent peer-review process.

How is that any different to fellow Christians reviewing theology? Or exhibiting physical gifts of the Spirit?

When new evidence comes to light that casts doubt upon a particular theory, scientists are willing to consider changing the theory if that evidence is proved to be reliable.

So if evidence came along which demonstrated that evolution was wrong, you’d be the first to admit it? If so, why should I listen to you when you label it a fact?

Contrast this to your 'sensual responses to God'. You have decided without evidence that God exists.

No I haven’t.

No amount of evidence will ever persuade you that God does not exist.

No amount of evidence will persuade you that God exists. Even if he appeared before your eyes and performed miracles I’m sure you’d just blame it on some kind of psychological episode. You will never be satisfied. You are an enemy of God.

It suited those who were in positions of authority at the time. That's an over simplification, but it's nearer the truth than 'the explosion of the early church proves Jesus'/God's existence'.

The people who witnessed Jesus’ resurrection were born again straight away. Their numbers multiplied astronomically. How do you explain this?

We have no proof that Jesus even existed, but if he did, I refer you back to my previous answer about the mental patients. People believe all manner of crazy sh*t.

An overwhelming majority of scholars from numerous faiths (or even no faith) agree he existed.

It's a bloody story. We have no proof that Jesus existed, much less that he died, was placed in a tomb and then came back to life.

Again, most scholars would disagree. You should then ask yourself why you accept or reject certain claims about his divinity.

Yes, it is. There is not a single recognised scientist alive who doesn't accept the theory of evolution. It is fact.

Is that a fact just for today or for eternity? Real facts don’t chop and change depending on what way the wind is blowing.

I don't have to be millions of years old. Are the Police present at every murder? Or do they collect evidence in order to build up a picture of what happened? There is massive, overwhelming evidence to support evolution. You would have to be a total idiot to doubt it.

There’s a notable lack of evidence of transition within species.

Speak for yourself. I'm a good person. I don't go out of my way to hurt others - sometimes I'll even go out of my way to help them. I don't cheat on my wife and I'm a good father to our son. I'm (usually) honest, I don't murder or rape, and I pay my taxes. I'm not perfect - none of us are - but I certainly don't deserve Hell. Which is fortunate, because I won't be going there.

You fall short of God’s perfection, that is enough to condemn you. You are self-righteous. I am sorry to say you are destined for Hell whether you think you are a good person or not.

Please, embrace Jesus.