Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:19 am  

BiffasBoys wrote:

The banks worked within the regulatory framework they were bound by. How would you define unjustifiable. What is your fascination with the U.S. It's got nothing to do with the UK. The problems in the UK are entirely the fault of the last Labour government & it's first Chancellor of the Exchequer <etc etc>...

Riiiiight ... the economic crisis in the UK that precipitated recession in the UK is/was not part of the same economic crisis that precipitated the recession across the Western economies in the same way at the same moment ... OK, got it

BTW, an example of "unjustifiable" is making bets that you don't have the capitalisation to bear if you lose.
But I guess that never happened either, eh?

BiffasBoys wrote:

Sufficiently? He stripped away regulation & controls that were already in place...

Which regulation and controls were these?
Bear in mind we are looking for the specific controls that would have prevented the financial crash, not some airy-fairy general (and fictional) mentions of "controls" ... now's your chance to be specific for once.
Which controls did Brown take away that would have prevented the crash?

BiffasBoys wrote:

He set up the useless FSA. It doesn't matter one scintilla what anyone said, it's what he did that brought the crash in the UK... <snip> ... Before Brown came along, interest rates were controlled by the Chancellor & the Governor BofE & they fluctuated according to the demand for money & it's supply. Brown killed that mechanism of interest rate control & stripped away controls on lending.

Okaaay ... so giving responsibility to the BoE (interest rates) was a mistake and taking responsibility from the BoE (Financial regulation) was also a mistake.
Hmmm.

El Bardudo wrote:

Just that earlier you said, in one of your "facts", that Gordon Brown took control of interest rates away from the BoE.
I'm just wondering whether I dreamed the handing over of interest rate control TO the BoE, by Gordon Brown, back in 1997...

BiffasBoys wrote:

Perhaps I worded that wrongly. He broke with a 300 year old system to cut the B of E free to do it's own thing, as long as it kept inflation around his target. As long as that figure, which was also manipulated by changing how it was calculated, was good for him, he completely ignores what was going on.

"Worded that wrongly"???? ... bloody hell, I'll say you did ... 100% wrongly
First you say he was wrong to take it away from the BoE.
Then, when you are told that he actually gave it TO the BoE ... suddenly that was the mistake instead.
Why don't you admit that it doesn't really matter who did what or when, that you don't actually require reasons, you just know that EVERYTHING was Brown's fault?

"completely ignored what was going on"? ... to have ignored it, he must have known about it ... so, go on then, you tell us what was "going on" and how he and the rest of the Western economies who spotted it too and "completely ignored" it

You see Sunshine, where he actually went wrong was not in taking away regulation (he didn't) but in not tightening the regulation that he inherited from the previous bunch of spivs.
(Here's your homework ... Google "Thatcher" and "Big Bang" and "deregulation" and see if you come up with "tighter regulation").
The problem was actually that neither he nor other Western governments (or you ... or me) realised was the degree of inter-relation between banks and financial institutions even in different countries.
The banks etc were busily trading in financial instruments which were basically packaged turds, the contents of which governmental agencies were, largely, unaware.
Whilst the FSA (for example) was busy looking at individual institutions, no-one noticed how hugely dangerous this inter-relation was (except the institutions themselves and they didn't actually care as it wasn't their own money they were gambling ... even to the point where Goldman Sachs Group sold $40bn of securities (containing sub-prime mortgages) to its own clients whilst, at the same time betting on a huge drop in the value of those securities. So, basically THEY KNEW they were selling turds ... to clients who paid them and trusted them).
Even the credit-rating agencies were giving this stuff top ratings.
But, I'm forgetting that this was obviously Gordon Brown's fault.

Of course, the Conservatives criticised him at that time for not loosening regulation ... Christ, imagine where we'd be now if that had happened?
We'd better not vote for them, eh?

[quote="BiffasBoys"]The responsibility to act in the best interest of the economy by using interest rates to control the demand for lending...[quote="BiffasBoys"]
Leave it out.
Who determines interest rates in the UK now?
Have the Tories changed that?
You probably think they have.

Just by way of examples ...
Who determines interest rates in the Eurozone? ... the central bank (ECB).
Who determines interest rates in the US? ... the central bank (Fed)
Who decides interest rates in all the BRIC economies? ... their central banks
How about Switzerland or New Zealand or Australia? ... their central banks
Who determines interest rates in the UK? ... the central bank (BoE) ... but Brown, who you trust so highly, should have kept that responsibility himself

Opinion is divided on whether low interest rates fed the housing bubble but more and more are leaning towards the bigger reason being the ease of obtaining credit (see e.g. sub prime)... and, whilst the low level of interest did have some effect, it was much less.

But, of course, you know best ... and whatever the reasons, everything across the Western world was all Gordon Brown's fault and it's better that we have Tories in charge, ignoring the economy and hammering welfare instead.

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:30 am  

El Barbudo wrote:

You <Biffa'sBoys> deny official stats, don't know that yield rate is the cost of borrowing, refuse to accept that stimulus pulled the US out of the mire, think that the entire Western banking crisis was Brown's fault, deny the reductions in public sector staffing, don't accept that supply versus demand affects price, cover your lack of insight with irrelevant questions but ignore questions asked of you ... etc etc ... and, when proved utterly wrong, you respond with "Absolute tosh".

Just to keep this font of knowledge up to date, we need to add that Gordon Brown took away interest rate decisions from the BoE, oh hang on, now, he GAVE them that responsibility, no hang on ... oh whatever he did, he shouldn't have done it, even if he didn't ... or did.
The UK financial crisis was not part of the Western world's financial crisis.
Gordon Brown eradicated banking regulation and control.
Borrowing is not cheap at the moment.

It's getting rather long, this list.

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:49 am  

An earlier question to BiffasBoys to which (s)he has yet to offer a reply...

El Barbudo wrote:

...Why you mentioned the Help to Buy scheme, I don't know but, as you have, I'd like to ask why is it OK for HMG to subsidise private new-house purchases when you are so staunchly against social housing?
(I use the term subsidise here to mean the interest-free first-five-years of the government loan to the buyer and the lower rate that the buyer can demand from the lender because the buyer has a larger deposit courtesy of the Chancer of the Exchequer).

I'm guessing the answer will be "Gordon Brown"

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:16 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

BiffasBoys wrote:

The banks worked within the regulatory framework they were bound by. How would you define unjustifiable. What is your fascination with the U.S. It's got nothing to do with the UK. The problems in the UK are entirely the fault of the last Labour government & it's first Chancellor of the Exchequer <etc etc>...

Riiiiight ... the economic crisis in the UK that precipitated recession in the UK is/was not part of the same economic crisis that precipitated the recession across the Western economies in the same way at the same moment ... OK, got it

BTW, an example of "unjustifiable" is making bets that you don't have the capitalisation to bear if you lose.
But I guess that never happened either, eh?

BiffasBoys wrote:

Sufficiently? He stripped away regulation & controls that were already in place...

Which regulation and controls were these?
Bear in mind we are looking for the specific controls that would have prevented the financial crash, not some airy-fairy general (and fictional) mentions of "controls" ... now's your chance to be specific for once.
Which controls did Brown take away that would have prevented the crash?

BiffasBoys wrote:

He set up the useless FSA. It doesn't matter one scintilla what anyone said, it's what he did that brought the crash in the UK... <snip> ... Before Brown came along, interest rates were controlled by the Chancellor & the Governor BofE & they fluctuated according to the demand for money & it's supply. Brown killed that mechanism of interest rate control & stripped away controls on lending.

Okaaay ... so giving responsibility to the BoE (interest rates) was a mistake and taking responsibility from the BoE (Financial regulation) was also a mistake.
Hmmm.

El Bardudo wrote:

Just that earlier you said, in one of your "facts", that Gordon Brown took control of interest rates away from the BoE.
I'm just wondering whether I dreamed the handing over of interest rate control TO the BoE, by Gordon Brown, back in 1997...

BiffasBoys wrote:

Perhaps I worded that wrongly. He broke with a 300 year old system to cut the B of E free to do it's own thing, as long as it kept inflation around his target. As long as that figure, which was also manipulated by changing how it was calculated, was good for him, he completely ignores what was going on.

"Worded that wrongly"???? ... bloody hell, I'll say you did ... 100% wrongly
First you say he was wrong to take it away from the BoE.
Then, when you are told that he actually gave it TO the BoE ... suddenly that was the mistake instead.
Why don't you admit that it doesn't really matter who did what or when, that you don't actually require reasons, you just know that EVERYTHING was Brown's fault?

"completely ignored what was going on"? ... to have ignored it, he must have known about it ... so, go on then, you tell us what was "going on" and how he and the rest of the Western economies who spotted it too and "completely ignored" it

You see Sunshine, where he actually went wrong was not in taking away regulation (he didn't) but in not tightening the regulation that he inherited from the previous bunch of spivs.
(Here's your homework ... Google "Thatcher" and "Big Bang" and "deregulation" and see if you come up with "tighter regulation").
The problem was actually that neither he nor other Western governments (or you ... or me) realised was the degree of inter-relation between banks and financial institutions even in different countries.
The banks etc were busily trading in financial instruments which were basically packaged turds, the contents of which governmental agencies were, largely, unaware.
Whilst the FSA (for example) was busy looking at individual institutions, no-one noticed how hugely dangerous this inter-relation was (except the institutions themselves and they didn't actually care as it wasn't their own money they were gambling ... even to the point where Goldman Sachs Group sold $40bn of securities (containing sub-prime mortgages) to its own clients whilst, at the same time betting on a huge drop in the value of those securities. So, basically THEY KNEW they were selling turds ... to clients who paid them and trusted them).
Even the credit-rating agencies were giving this stuff top ratings.
But, I'm forgetting that this was obviously Gordon Brown's fault.

Of course, the Conservatives criticised him at that time for not loosening regulation ... Christ, imagine where we'd be now if that had happened?
We'd better not vote for them, eh?

[quote="BiffasBoys"]The responsibility to act in the best interest of the economy by using interest rates to control the demand for lending...


You seem incapable of realising that it was errors by Gordon. Brown that left the UK in such a mess.

The FSA? Stroke of genius that. He set it up. It failed, catastrophically.

Brown has openly admitted he made a terrible mistake in not knowing the make up of the market before he went ahead with his lunatic plans.

You don't know the market you' re passing regulation on?

What sort of basis is that for running an economy & holding the purse strings?

You're wrong on interest rate setting.

I was actually asking for a comparison on the growth figures for Eurozone countries, instead of you banging on about the irrelevant & incomparable USA of A.

Why did Gordon Brown change the way interest rates were set?

This change gave rise to huge increases in lending, which he of course was happy to cream the taxes off.

A doubling in public spending, £320bn to £640bn per annum and the massive structural deficit we have, was/is down to Gordon Brown. Where has all that money gone?

Did he really truly believe he had become the first Chancellor in history to abolish boom & bust? He took the latter to record levels.

With all that money coming in, why run a deficit at all?

Remind us again how the wealth gap grew like never before under his watch.

The house price bubble took home ownership out of the reach of so many, thus putting more pressure on the state.

Why is it not his fault that he did not keep a very close eye on the economy?

Did he not see any of the quarterly statistics on, for example, mortgage lending etc?

The banks have become a very convenient scapegoat. They could only do as they did because, excuse the unintended pun, Brown turned a blind eye to everything that was going on.

Where is he these days? Leaving Miliband & Balls to trot out the 'it's all the banks fault' line.

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:20 pm  

JerryChicken wrote:

I like you, you're very funny.

But every time you post something I think of this moment...



...and I like to think of you as being about the same age, and just as precocious - I'm right aren't I ?

I was only 2 in 1997 remember!!

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:33 pm  

BiffasBoys wrote:

I was only 2 in 1997 remember!!

Whether you were or not, it would still leave sufficient time to learn how to use the quote function correctly.

Oh and that picture is from 1977

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:23 pm  

BiffasBoys wrote:

The FSA? Stroke of genius that. He <Gordon Brown> set it up. It failed, catastrophically.

It did indeed fail.

BiffasBoys wrote:

Brown has openly admitted he made a terrible mistake in not knowing the make up of the market before he went ahead with his lunatic plans
You don't know the market you' re passing regulation on?
What sort of basis is that for running an economy & holding the purse strings?

You misquote him, he actually said he hadn't realised the degree of interconnectivity of the banking markets.
Frankly, looking back at the way the crisis engulfed the Western banking system, which governments did realise?
Also, who knew that the contents of the packages the banks were buying and selling contained all those US sub-prime mortgages? Mervyn King says he didn't know, ditto Ben Bernanke, neither did I, did you know?

BiffasBoys wrote:

You're wrong on interest rate setting.

Look at sub-prime ... if you are lending to people who you know can't afford to repay, when you are lending more than 100% of the property value to people with a bad credit rating, you are taking massive risks ... unless, of course, you sell that debt straight away and it's no longer your problem.
Which is what they did.
The BoE's decisons on UK interest rates did not cause US lenders to lend to sub prime customers.

BiffasBoys wrote:

I was actually asking for a comparison on the growth figures for Eurozone countries, instead of you banging on about the irrelevant & incomparable USA of A.

Why?
Is the zone that has to bail-out Greece and protect the fragility of Spain and Italy somehow more relevant and comparable to the UK than the US is?
Has the Eurozone loaned money direct to targeted industries in the way that Obama did?
Clue : The answer is no and no.

BiffasBoys wrote:

Why did Gordon Brown change the way interest rates were set?

To control inflation.
Why have the Conservatives left that responsibility with the monetary policy committee of the BoE?
To control inflation.

BiffasBoys wrote:

A doubling in public spending, £320bn to £640bn per annum and the massive structural deficit we have, was/is down to Gordon Brown. Where has all that money gone?

Prior to the crisis the deficit was roughly the same as John Major left behind and lower than most Western economies, the deficit rose hugely after that due to reduced tax-takes rather than huge hikes in public spending between 2007 and 2010.

Do you think that the Conservatives efforts to reduce the deficit are worth the huge debt that is now soaring way beyond Brown and Darling's levels?

BiffasBoys wrote:

Did he really truly believe he had become the first Chancellor in history to abolish boom & bust? He took the latter to record levels.

By comparison with the previous governments who had presided over two recessions, he was doing pretty good when he made that speech.
Nonetheless, the comment he made about boom and bust was definitely hubristic, as everyone would have their own interpretation of it.

BiffasBoys wrote:

With all that money coming in, why run a deficit at all?

See above.

BiffasBoys wrote:

Remind us again how the wealth gap grew like never before under his watch.

Wrong again.
It didn't.
The only stats I've seen are from the IFS, showing that he only succeeded in halting the growth of the gap that had been occurring under the Conservatives.
But you say it did, so show us the stats.

BiffasBoys wrote:

The house price bubble took home ownership out of the reach of so many, thus putting more pressure on the state.

Excuse me?
You now agree that house prices are too high? A few pages back in this thread you denied it.
At last, a relevant point about the need for social housing (which, incidentally, is what the thread is sort of about).

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:47 pm  

BiffasBoys wrote:

I was only 2 in 1997 remember!!

Don't know why Jerry Chicken is so ageist to be honest.

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:30 pm  

Ajw71 wrote:

Don't know why Jerry Chicken is so ageist to be honest.

With age comes wisdom.

You've got ages to wait yet, if ever.

Re: Bedroom Tax - A Solution ? : Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:49 pm  

JerryChicken wrote:

With age comes wisdom.

You must be the exception to the rule.