Re: Scottish Referendum : Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:20 pm  

The Chair Maker wrote: Former St.Helens council leader Marie Rimmer has been arrested in Scotland on charges of assault, outside a polling station while campaigning for people to vote no to independence. She is also the selected Labour candidate for the St.Helens south constituency in the forthcoming general election Make of this what you will. Doesn't look good though, and should finish her political career. http://www.sthelensreporter.co.uk/news/ ... -1-6849335 It won't finish her, she'll make yet another comeback. I wonder what happened to the cushy quango she was given when she stepped aside to parachute in Woodward as PPC? Personally I think she should have settled with that, as she was lucky she got to make a comback after she decided to step down from the St.Helens MBC leadership the first time she held it. I'd like to say the people of St.Helens deserve better, but they really don't!

The Chair Maker wrote: Former St.Helens council leader Marie Rimmer has been arrested in Scotland on charges of assault, outside a polling station while campaigning for people to vote no to independence. She is also the selected Labour candidate for the St.Helens south constituency in the forthcoming general election Make of this what you will. Doesn't look good though, and should finish her political career. http://www.sthelensreporter.co.uk/news/ ... -1-6849335 It won't finish her, she'll make yet another comeback. I wonder what happened to the cushy quango she was given when she stepped aside to parachute in Woodward as PPC? Personally I think she should have settled with that, as she was lucky she got to make a comback after she decided to step down from the St.Helens MBC leadership the first time she held it. I'd like to say the people of St.Helens deserve better, but they really don't!

Re: Scottish Referendum : Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:42 pm  

Kelvin's Ferret wrote:

Without rehashing what has already been said about Labour's West Lothian Question problems, a fair settlement could leave them with serious problems. England is the largest and most dominant part of the UK, which means that a potential future Labour administration would become a lame duck on some major issues and votes if it actually accepted a fair and honest settlement for England.

I don't think we need another layer of English government, I just think we need to exclude MPs from non-English constituencies from votes which are devolved outside of England. The argument that it makes those excluded MPs "2nd Class" is just mendacious rubbish. If it is really that important to have daylight between UK issues and devolved issues then the English MPs could sit in another building when these issues are in session (although it is somewhat wasteful it is less wasteful than a full blown layer of government). In theory it would be nice to move the English sessions out of London to somewhere like Birmingham that would just be an excuse to ratchet up expenses and London is the capital of England even if it actually culturally rather different to the rest of England.

The masochist in me is looking forward to Clegg announcing that he has entered into a coalition with Labour in the UK building and a coalition with the Tories in the English buiding

Re: Scottish Referendum : Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:37 pm  

WIZEB wrote:

I've travelled around Europe fairly extensivelly over the years.
The Scots I've found by and large are made pretty welcome it's the Little Englanders that they tend to despise.

yup

I love Scotland, haven't had chance to visit for a long time.

Will never forget turning up in full wet weather gear for a "trip to the islands" in a pub in Ardrossan, only to be told to sit down, given a pail of mussels and a single of each of a selection of island malts!

Re: Scottish Referendum : Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:56 pm  

Salmond has quit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29277527

Salmond has quit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29277527

Re: Scottish Referendum : Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:20 pm  

Hull White Star wrote: Salmond has quit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29277527 I wouldn't be surprised to see him back in the House of Commons next year. He tends to go where he thinks he can have the most impact and, after the referendum, that will not be Holyrood. He'll want to make himself a thorn in the side of the new government, constantly attacking them for not keeping their "vow". I can see the SNP having a real go at Labour at the general election, accusing Milliband and Brown of conning the electorate. A posse of new SNP MP's led by Salmond constantly pushing for more devolution.

Hull White Star wrote: Salmond has quit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29277527 I wouldn't be surprised to see him back in the House of Commons next year. He tends to go where he thinks he can have the most impact and, after the referendum, that will not be Holyrood. He'll want to make himself a thorn in the side of the new government, constantly attacking them for not keeping their "vow". I can see the SNP having a real go at Labour at the general election, accusing Milliband and Brown of conning the electorate. A posse of new SNP MP's led by Salmond constantly pushing for more devolution.

Re: Scottish Referendum : Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:44 pm  

Thank god for the good people of Scotland for the no vote . If they had gone the other way england would have been in the grip of the conservatives for a long time !!! Thank you to Scotland and your good people

[DaveO]

Re: Scottish Referendum : Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:02 pm  

Kelvin's Ferret wrote:

It's interesting because the whole Yes campaign was based on bribes and snake oil and it worked remarkably well, huge numbers of people fell for the promise that everyone could have their cake and eat it no matter how nonsensical it was on a practical level, and they even got people to swallow the line that gaping inconvenient holes in the argument was just the bias of critics. It was at times quite like believing there are faries at the bottom of the garden, that it doesn't stack up doesn't matter, what matters is that it sounds nice.

But Labour have a real problem now, the public awareness of the West Lothian question is at an all time high, getting it to go away this close to a general election will be hard. The Conservatives need to be clever and inextricably link greater devolution for Scotland to greater devolution for England, so if Labour tries to block a fairer settlement for England it also hurts them in Scotland. Of course Labour could go along with a fairer settlement for England in the hope of securing an outright victory in the next general election and then simply renege on it and say "we lied, tough luck", it may actually be the only practical course. Of course the Conservative leadership has a problem in that it doesn't really want decentralisation of power, although there's been a long narrative of "localism" in practice in practice it has meant giving local authorities the power do what central government wants them to do.

The Tories are already saying they will link further devolution for Scotland to a settlement for England which basically means on English MP's voting for laws that affect England (they don't go into detail about Wales and NI , not that I have seen anyway). Salmond has already accused Cameron (not Labour) of lying over promises of further devolution as he has now said he is linking the two. It's Cameron's idea and Labour blocking it will go well in Scotland but not so well in UKIP-marginal constituencies in England where this simple message will go down well.

However English MP's voting for laws that affect England is typical Tory back of fag packet stuff and far more worthy of Farage and UKIP than it is a well thought out policy.

If you implement it you effectively break up the Union. Why? Well if Scottish MP's can't vote on matters that affect England we could never have a Scottish MP as a government minister, PM or chancellor ever again and if we are still supposed to be in a Union with a UK-wide government with MP's from all parts of it sat in Westminster this is clearly unworkable.

If it happened England would dominate the Union politically as there could only ever be an English PM, Chancellor and Home secretary etc. You disenfranchise the Scots from the ultimate seats of UK government, which is basically removing them from the Union.

A fairer settlement for England is one thing but English MP's voting for laws that affect England is populism not a sensible or workable policy. As it may well appeal to UKIPpers as I implied above I can see Cameron going for it to head off backbench revolt in his own party over further powers to Scotland and the UKIP threat. I am sure he'd view those two objectives as far more important than actually sitting down and working something as complex as this issue out properly for the good of country.

Re: Scottish Referendum : Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:04 pm  

So has Salmond unleashed sectarianism? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... eases.html

So has Salmond unleashed sectarianism? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... eases.html

Re: Scottish Referendum : Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:34 pm  

Dally wrote: So has Salmond unleashed sectarianism? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... eases.html No..... That type of nonsense has been going on for years every time that Celtic and Rangers play each other - You can see by the photos that its just a bunch of bladdered football fans goading one another. There are idiots on both sides, but the Rangers fans especially, with their Union flag waving, are particularly nauseating.... Awful bunch, they make you ashamed to be British and are a reason why it might have been preferable to get shut of them.

Dally wrote: So has Salmond unleashed sectarianism? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... eases.html No..... That type of nonsense has been going on for years every time that Celtic and Rangers play each other - You can see by the photos that its just a bunch of bladdered football fans goading one another. There are idiots on both sides, but the Rangers fans especially, with their Union flag waving, are particularly nauseating.... Awful bunch, they make you ashamed to be British and are a reason why it might have been preferable to get shut of them.

Re: Scottish Referendum : Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:59 pm  

DaveO wrote:

The Tories are already saying they will link further devolution for Scotland to a settlement for England which basically means on English MP's voting for laws that affect England (they don't go into detail about Wales and NI , not that I have seen anyway). Salmond has already accused Cameron (not Labour) of lying over promises of further devolution as he has now said he is linking the two. It's Cameron's idea and Labour blocking it will go well in Scotland but not so well in UKIP-marginal constituencies in England where this simple message will go down well.

However English MP's voting for laws that affect England is typical Tory back of fag packet stuff and far more worthy of Farage and UKIP than it is a well thought out policy.

If you implement it you effectively break up the Union. Why? Well if Scottish MP's can't vote on matters that affect England we could never have a Scottish MP as a government minister, PM or chancellor ever again and if we are still supposed to be in a Union with a UK-wide government with MP's from all parts of it sat in Westminster this is clearly unworkable.

If it happened England would dominate the Union politically as there could only ever be an English PM, Chancellor and Home secretary etc. You disenfranchise the Scots from the ultimate seats of UK government, which is basically removing them from the Union.

A fairer settlement for England is one thing but English MP's voting for laws that affect England is populism not a sensible or workable policy. As it may well appeal to UKIPpers as I implied above I can see Cameron going for it to head off backbench revolt in his own party over further powers to Scotland and the UKIP threat. I am sure he'd view those two objectives as far more important than actually sitting down and working something as complex as this issue out properly for the good of country.

All 3 parties made the vow. Gordon Brown was the one to make all the promises in the days before the vote.

It is impossible on an intellectual or democratic basis to devolve further powers to Scotland without a reduction in the influence they have on matters that do not concern Scotland. Or without a more formal parliamentary set up for the English.

Cameron has rightly thrown the English, Welsh & NI'ers in to mix post result. It's a card no one expected him tp play & really does leave Labour & the Lib Dems in an awkward position. He can now push to get more powers drawn up for Scotland & really play on any delays by Labour & the Lib Dems in agreeing. Each of the three are not in agreement about what powers should be handed over.

This will play into the hands of the pro-independence & SNP.

With just 1 MP in Scotland, he has nothing to lose from being even more unpopular. If the other two don't go along with him, they have plenty of seats to lose in 2015 & MSP's in 2016.

Cameron does have to be seen to give something away to the English & address the West Lothian question. He has a real double pronged threat from UKIP to blunt & has to be very careful.

Other than what is in the 2012 Scotland Act, there is nothing to say what will be drawn up for future devolution, and it is a massive job to get anything done before purdah.

Fascinating times.