Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:12 pm  

Ruune Rebellion wrote:

This thread is ace. I should basically stop listening to what experts say because Cronus states the opposite yet he posts with authority like he knows what he is talking about.

Go on then sunshine, grace us with your pearls of wisdom.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:21 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

Well the 14th of January will be interesting!

I’m surprised they’re restarting the debate. Is owt going to change over Christmas? Because nowt much has changed since the vote was postponed. Except the clock running down.

Are they going to have those indicative votes? I think that’d be a decent idea even if only to show that no option commands a majority.

I do think, even as a Labour voter, that their position looks daft now. If they’re going to table a motion of no confidence, they have to do it ASAP. Fancying about waiting for some imaginary perfectly opportune moment isn’t a good look from any perspective.

They could do it as a ‘we think this deal is suboptimal, but we’ll vote for it holding our noses if we can’t win a no-confidence vote’. Then it’s up to the Tory brextremists to kill the deal and their own government or learn to live with it.

Their position is all over the place. They're dishonestly courting the Remain voter, all the while knowing their leader (and McDonnell) is pro-Brexit. They talk of going back to Brussels for a better deal, knowing full well it simply isn't possible. They hint at a People's Vote, and then confirm Brexit will going ahead if they win a snap election.

They think we're all too daft to see it, and are gambling on anti-Tory sentiment winning the day. People know Brexit isn't a Tory policy, whether they like the deal or not.

You're right, they should vote it through as the better of the 2 outcomes. But they won't, and that's why we're now seeing no-deal preparations being seriously ramped up, despite having a workable deal on the table.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:31 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I know that the boat has long since sailed but, instead of Mrs May just doing it her way, with the total exclusion of all other parties and their MP's, do you not think that she should have tried to engage just as many opposition MP's at the outset, especially those who were staunch "leavers" from strong "leave" areas

Instead, she alienated pretty much everyone and we will all pay the price of her stupidity (at least Corbyn got that right, although he didn't have the balls to admit what he had said).

Maybe, although there's no reason to think we'd be anywhere different right now, feelings on this matter are simply too strong. Most likely we'd have seen a similar raft of departures from the Brexit team when negotiations weren't heading EXACTLY the way that particular person wanted and May would have ended up steering the ship anyway.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:53 am  

Cronus wrote:

The strategists at Labour HQ don't care. They want No.10 and they want it by any means. They think that if they can drive Brexit to a no-deal (or even remain in the EU), they can all blame the Tories and force a General Election.

Remind me which party launched this whole farce. Remind me which 'leader' called a snap general election to try & eradicate any meaningful opposition.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:55 am  

Backwardsman wrote:

As always your posting drags the debate down into the gutter. You are incapable of posting without cheap shots and jibes. It’s quite obvious what Corbyn said , he should just apologise and get on with life. Instead we have to put up with bare faced lies by him and various other Labour stalwarts. As for killing hundreds of people, I must have missed that on the news.
A majority of rough sleepers in London are from east Europe. If you go to Paris the problem is much more severe also Brussels. That’s the result of this wonderful European social experiment people with no money or job prospects are allowed free movement. This weeks new statesman which is free online ,has a letter from john denham the former Labour minister in which he highlights being called xenophobic . This for outlining concerns that self employed building workers had payments reduced by half, due to the influx of cheap European Labour. Heard Diane Abbot on the today programmer the other morning, incompetence on a grand scale springs to mind. The prospects of her, Lammy , Corbyn etc etc performing in government would be hilarious. On second thoughts it would turn us into the European equivalent of Venezuela. Meanwhile in the real world the German car industry is expressing real concerns about us leaving the eu. Likewise the Irish business community. Some pizza restaurants have discovered mozzarella from Wales is just as good as the Italian varieties. One of my pals has a wine importing business. He is being bombarded with calls from non eu suppliers of wine offering highly competitive deals . The uk business community will adapt and thrive if allowed.

I hope you are posting from your phone or your laptop is working off batteries; you really shouldn't be trusted with mains electricity.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:01 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I know that the boat has long since sailed but, instead of Mrs May just doing it her way, with the total exclusion of all other parties and their MP's, do you not think that she should have tried to engage just as many opposition MP's at the outset, especially those who were staunch "leavers" from strong "leave" areas

Instead, she alienated pretty much everyone and we will all pay the price of her stupidity (at least Corbyn got that right, although he didn't have the balls to admit what he had said).

Sadly its not the way it works in British politics - why do we expect MPs who litle life experience outside of politics to be able to negotiate a deal as complex as Brexit to any competent degree?

Problem is our approach has been appalling - we should have started from no deal and worked upwards - we were always on the back foot with the approach we engaged Europe with.

If you add to that a bunch of people who don't want Brexit at all you have a recipe for the shambles that has transpired.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:59 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Sadly its not the way it works in British politics - why do we expect MPs who litle life experience outside of politics to be able to negotiate a deal as complex as Brexit to any competent degree?

Problem is our approach has been appalling - we should have started from no deal and worked upwards - we were always on the back foot with the approach we engaged Europe with.

If you add to that a bunch of people who don't want Brexit at all you have a recipe for the shambles that has transpired.

I'm fully aware of how British politics works.

However with both of the main parties split down the middle on the Brexit issue, there had to be some collective working on Brexit.

Unfortunately, post referendum, Mrs May made it quite clear that the views of others wouldn't be listened to, never mind acrted upon, with the exception of the loyalists onf N. Ireland (whose support she needed to prop up her self inflicted minority government).

Had she gaine some consensus, on the back of "fulfilling the wishes of the people", perhaps there may have been a different tradjectory for both the negotiations and it's support within parliament.

What's also increddible is the silence of many of Labour's "leave" MP's and it appears that not one of them is prepared to break rank in order to deliver Brexit (well Mrs May's version of Brexit, anyway).


It appears that Comrade Corbyn is holding his party together, far better than his Tory counterpart, again, quite increddible.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:10 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I'm fully aware of how British politics works.

However with both of the main parties split down the middle on the Brexit issue, there had to be some collective working on Brexit.

Unfortunately, post referendum, Mrs May made it quite clear that the views of others wouldn't be listened to, never mind acrted upon, with the exception of the loyalists onf N. Ireland (whose support she needed to prop up her self inflicted minority government).

Had she gaine some consensus, on the back of "fulfilling the wishes of the people", perhaps there may have been a different tradjectory for both the negotiations and it's support within parliament.

What's also increddible is the silence of many of Labour's "leave" MP's and it appears that not one of them is prepared to break rank in order to deliver Brexit (well Mrs May's version of Brexit, anyway).


It appears that Comrade Corbyn is holding his party together, far better than his Tory counterpart, again, quite increddible.

We both know the parties aren't split down the middle - the remainers significantly out number the leavers in Parliment.

How do gain agreement when nobody wants to leave - its impossible - the EU would have had a greater pushover than they have already have - how would a concensus with the SNP work?

Labour have one shot at power don't convert this and they might as well give up - Corbyn may be doing a good job of keeping his party together pity his magic isn't working on the potential electorate.

His best hope is that May hangs around for a while longer.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:45 am  

It's interesting that Brexit and the subsequent mess has become Corbyn's fault - and many people assume that the power to fix it rests solely with him; we seem to have done some weird volte face, in which the MSM and some celebrities robustly hold the opposition to account, whilst giving the Government a free pass - assisted by the timely appearance of Schrodinger's drone...

I really don't see the confusion over what he said this weekend - it's exactly what he's said since being given a mandate at conference; oppose the crappy deal May is clinging to, push for a GE when it's voted down, and failing that (for fail it will) all options remain on the table - including a second vote.

It always helps to read the story and not just the headline.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:35 pm  

bren2k wrote:

It's interesting that Brexit and the subsequent mess has become Corbyn's fault - and many people assume that the power to fix it rests solely with him; we seem to have done some weird volte face, in which the MSM and some celebrities robustly hold the opposition to account, whilst giving the Government a free pass - assisted by the timely appearance of Schrodinger's drone...

I really don't see the confusion over what he said this weekend - it's exactly what he's said since being given a mandate at conference; oppose the crappy deal May is clinging to, push for a GE when it's voted down, and failing that (for fail it will) all options remain on the table - including a second vote.

It always helps to read the story and not just the headline.

My criticism is really with the ‘all options remain on the table’. It’s getting a bit late in the day for that.

May’s mistake, well one of them, has been to chuck too much red meat the way of the ERG, and it is clear now she could never realistically sate them. So she’s now having to surreptiously reach across the floor/blackmail the opposition into voting for a deal that is very poorly aligned with their (admittedly diverse) priorities and is broadly unpopular.

Labour’s chances in a GE could also be boosted by a split in the Conservative party, which increasingly feels like it would be a real possibility if it came to that.