Re: rememberance : Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:32 pm  

Anyway, bought my poppy this morning.

I was listening to that prat on LBC a couple of weeks ago (the one on the morning chat show, sorry I can't remember his name or narrow it down more than "prat" and "morning chat show"). (*)
Anyroad, he was moaning and banging on about politicians competing to be the earliest to wear a poppy and how it demeaned the idea of the poppy blah blah blah.
Then, eventually, he wound up that topic by saying that he always wears his from day one of the British Legion bringing them out.



(*) Just typed "prat" and "LBC" into Google ... his name's Nick Ferrari.

Re: rememberance : Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:23 pm  

Cronus wrote: It seems FIFA don't go for poppies either. Seriously? I've little time for that corrupt organisation at the best of time, and this is plain senseless. If England wish to wear poppies and commemorate Armistice Day at Wembley, stick a big middle finger up to Blatter and his corrupt cronies and go ahead - stick them on their boots if they have to, FIFA have no control over that apparently. There is a danger of the Poppy Appeal becoming politicised in the same way that Aids Ribbons were. It would have been perfectly possible for the FA to commemerate Armistice Day appropriately without having poppies on the shirts. There will be a minutes silence, some small ceremony involving members of the services. They'll have poppies on the tracksuit tops. FIFA's decision to "ban" poppies was thick, but their general reluctance to resist emblems on shirts isnt entirely wrong. THe over reaction to it seemed to me to have nothing to do with any genuine sense of grievance, just the media liking to play the role of incensed campaigner. It makes me cringe when poppies are on show weeks before the 11th. And the way that everyone appearing on the telly inevitably has one just looks false. Which tin did they put their money in?

Cronus wrote: It seems FIFA don't go for poppies either. Seriously? I've little time for that corrupt organisation at the best of time, and this is plain senseless. If England wish to wear poppies and commemorate Armistice Day at Wembley, stick a big middle finger up to Blatter and his corrupt cronies and go ahead - stick them on their boots if they have to, FIFA have no control over that apparently. There is a danger of the Poppy Appeal becoming politicised in the same way that Aids Ribbons were. It would have been perfectly possible for the FA to commemerate Armistice Day appropriately without having poppies on the shirts. There will be a minutes silence, some small ceremony involving members of the services. They'll have poppies on the tracksuit tops. FIFA's decision to "ban" poppies was thick, but their general reluctance to resist emblems on shirts isnt entirely wrong. THe over reaction to it seemed to me to have nothing to do with any genuine sense of grievance, just the media liking to play the role of incensed campaigner. It makes me cringe when poppies are on show weeks before the 11th. And the way that everyone appearing on the telly inevitably has one just looks false. Which tin did they put their money in?

Re: rememberance : Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:36 pm  

Cibaman wrote:

There is a danger of the Poppy Appeal becoming politicised in the same way that Aids Ribbons were.

It would have been perfectly possible for the FA to commemerate Armistice Day appropriately without having poppies on the shirts. There will be a minutes silence, some small ceremony involving members of the services. They'll have poppies on the tracksuit tops. FIFA's decision to "ban" poppies was thick, but their general reluctance to resist emblems on shirts isnt entirely wrong. THe over reaction to it seemed to me to have nothing to do with any genuine sense of grievance, just the media liking to play the role of incensed campaigner.

It makes me cringe when poppies are on show weeks before the 11th. And the way that everyone appearing on the telly inevitably has one just looks false. Which tin did they put their money in?

The reaction was due to it being a pathetic and pedantic decision. The poppy is neither religious nor political, therefore there shouldn't be an issue. And the question has to be asked - why on earth should the FA back down? Good on them for showing some balls and standing up to that corrupt organisation.

There's no danger of the poppy symbol becoming politicised unless people start throwing those accusations around and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

We'd better make sure people only wear them according to your superior standards of taste in future. Can you let us know what date is acceptable to wear them next year and where we can post evidence of having donated please. I'd hate to think you were cringing at someone having the poor taste and manners to donate a quid and wear a poppy a few days too early.

Re: rememberance : Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:03 pm  

Cronus wrote:

... We'd better make sure people only wear them according to your superior standards of taste in future. Can you let us know what date is acceptable to wear them next year and where we can post evidence of having donated please. I'd hate to think you were cringing at someone having the poor taste and manners to donate a quid and wear a poppy a few days too early.

Hang on a minute. Cibaman voiced an opinion. He didn't have a dig at anyone here, that I can see. He was perfectly civilised in voicing that opinion. You may not agree with it, which is fine.

But since plenty of people call me out for being sarcy ...

As it happens, I'm uncomfortable with what he describes too. It's a really peculiar balance – and it's interesting that I'm not alone in feeling uncomfortable about this.

I have absolutely no problem with the poppy itself; with the fundraising or with the act of remembrance – I've made it clear here before that I think the latter in particular is very important. Where I'm working, a two-minute silence will be observed throughout the building tomorrow. Absolutely right.

But yes, it seems (and that word is important, because this is a subjective reaction) that there is a sort of competition to wear one as early as possible each year. And I think that that arises particularly because of the televisual media and the sudden blossoming of poppies everywhere, while we're still in October.

If that is the case, does it not detract from the real meaning of the poppy?

Re: rememberance : Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:07 pm  

I'd go a bit further.
I don't like those huge floppy ones that some people are wearing, it shouts "Look how much I paid for my poppy".

Re: rememberance : Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:08 pm  

An interesting view on the wearing of poppies from Robert Fisk

An interesting view on the wearing of poppies from Robert Fisk

Re: rememberance : Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:09 pm  

cod'ead wrote: An interesting view on the wearing of poppies from Robert Fisk I saw this the other day. I've got a lot of time for Fisk, but I don't agree on this. What about you, Coddy?

cod'ead wrote: An interesting view on the wearing of poppies from Robert Fisk I saw this the other day. I've got a lot of time for Fisk, but I don't agree on this. What about you, Coddy?

Re: rememberance : Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:25 pm  

Mintball wrote:

I saw this the other day. I've got a lot of time for Fisk, but I'm not sure I agree on this.

What about you, Coddy?

If what he writes is a true account of his father's feelings, I imagine he wouldn't be the only old soldier to feel the same. I honestly can't remember my old man wearing a poppy, he bought one every year but it sat on the mantlepiece until the old lady cleared it up after Remembrance Sunday. I said earlier that I'd bought a couple of the lapel pins because they tend to stay where you put them but also because they are a little more discreet. I do think that many wear the poppy without giving any thought to the reasoning behind it. I also think this has contributed to the argument with FIFA.

If FIFA insist on no religious or political motifs on shirts, perhaps they better ask the Israeli team to redesign their shirt, after all a Star of David could be viewed as a religious symbol, similarly crescents could be viewed as Islamic symbols and a cross of St George as a symbol of Christianity. There may be only a handfull of nations who wear a poppy these days but there were many more post-WW1.

Re: rememberance : Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:39 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Hang on a minute. Cibaman voiced an opinion. He didn't have a dig at anyone here, that I can see. He was perfectly civilised in voicing that opinion. You may not agree with it, which is fine.

But since plenty of people call me out for being sarcy ...

As it happens, I'm uncomfortable with what he describes too. It's a really peculiar balance – and it's interesting that I'm not alone in feeling uncomfortable about this.

I have absolutely no problem with the poppy itself; with the fundraising or with the act of remembrance – I've made it clear here before that I think the latter in particular is very important. Where I'm working, a two-minute silence will be observed throughout the building tomorrow. Absolutely right.

But yes, it seems (and that word is important, because this is a subjective reaction) that there is a sort of competition to wear one as early as possible each year. And I think that that arises particularly because of the televisual media and the sudden blossoming of poppies everywhere, while we're still in October.

If that is the case, does it not detract from the real meaning of the poppy?

I think you're only seeing that sort of competition because you're looking for it. If your first thought upon seeing someone wearing a poppy in October is "Ooh look at 'im, must be the first with a poppy, how cringeworthy, oh yes", then that says more about your mindset than anything.

I've not noticed any competition of the sort. Yes, I've noticed people wearing them fairly early, I've got one myself and I didn't ask myself what date it was when I got it. I couldn't care less if someone buys one 2 days or 2 months before Armistice Day and it's a bit anal and rather pathetic (and frankly none of his business) for him to be declaring that he 'cringes' if he sees someone wearing one a bit earlier than he finds tasteful.
Personally, I think "well done for donating".

As for the TV - I imagine there are directives for these things instructing presenters one what date they must start wearing poppies. If viewers find that too much, they can always complain.

It's supposed to be a gesture and a donation, it's supposed to stand for something. Whoever suddenly finds themselves feeling all self-righteous and uppity about how long they feel it is appropriate to wear poppies should probably take a deep breath and get over it. What the poppy represents is a little more important.

Re: rememberance : Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:02 pm  

Cronus wrote:

As for the TV - I imagine there are directives for these things instructing presenters one what date they must start wearing poppies. If viewers find that too much, they can always complain.

It's supposed to be a gesture and a donation, it's supposed to stand for something. Whoever suddenly finds themselves feeling all self-righteous and uppity about how long they feel it is appropriate to wear poppies should probably take a deep breath and get over it. What the poppy represents is a little more important.

AFAIK the BBC allow their staff to wear poppies on-screen from the day the RBL start selling them, they do not mandate that all staff should wear a poppy though.

I think there is a danger in losing the message, through the increased commercialisation of the poppy. If you look at the RBL poppyshop, you'll find five pages of poppy-related merchandise, it wouldn't be difficult to confuse it with Red Nose Day.

Interestingly, the RBL also produce, alongside their poppy cross spikes, a crescent spike and a star spike.