Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:33 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Nice swerve. But no cigar. What you actually posited was that
"Andrew Lloyd Webber is not credible if you actually like musical theatre and consider it a credible art form."

Yes.

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

If all he could actually manage was one great tune per show, he'd still be writing great tunes, and so your claim that he has no credibility for anyone who likes musical theatre is seemingly based on nothing at all...

His influence and the manner in which he is hailed is out of all proportion to his talent and what he has written. I mentioned previously assorted composers who are not bad, but who are nowhere near as well known as the likes of Gershwin or R&H – partly because they might have penned a few good songs, but nowhere the numbers of many of R&H or others we've mentioned.

Take Jule Styne, for instance: there are a couple of stonkingly great show tunes in Gypsy – but most of us, even if we knew them and knew who'd composed them (and even if we knew who the lyricist was), would be hard pressed to think of more from that show – let alone any other Styne vehicle.

Same with Meredith Wilson and The Music Man, which probably has one stand-out tune that many people will know even without knowing where it came from (Seventy-six Trombones).

But none of these got the equivalent of the state recognition that LW has received.

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

I have just taken a straw poll of three teen/early twenties who work here with some of the most outstanding tunes of R&H, Gershwin etc and sadly they've never heard of either most of the tunes or the composers. Maybe you meant they have entered the consciousness of old or ageing people? Oh and I doubt that sad state of affairs is limited to veterans like R&H, today's youth largely have no clue about any great music of the past, even references to the likes of Neil Young, Led Zeppelin, Lou Reed, John Lee Hooker, Leadbelly or Aretha Franklin are like as not to be met with "Who?" and those who've heard the name could never name a tune...

I also noted earlier, of the accusation of "snobbery": "... it will simply indicate just how far down the path of mediocrity and dross we have gone."

Dross and mediocrity – and an education system in which few young people are introduced to anything that's actually culturally demanding because it doesn't suit league tables and exams that are based on multiple choice.

I don't think it's remotely a question of something entering "the consciousness of old or ageing people" – there's not a person alive, and hasn't been for quite some time, who can remember Mozart when he was a mere child starting out (or even when he died), but the passing of something like 21 generations since his flesh-and-bone demise has not meant that his music has passed from consciousness.

And that hasn't meant that people listening to that music have not listened to and enjoyed (or not!) other music too; different types of music and bang-up-to-date music.

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

But I digress. ALW is no Gershwin, but your put-down that he is not credible for anyone who likes musical theatre is just plain wrong.

The way in which he is hailed and has been lauded and rewarded by the state is out of all proportion to his abilities. And it is not credible – or it certainly shouldn't be.

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:10 pm  

Mintball wrote:

I didn't say he'd never penned a memorable song – although the ones mentioned have almost all come from the era where Rice was his collaborator, except for two from Phantom[, which had releases as singles.

The vast majority of Elton John's most memorable songs have come from the era when Bernie Taupin was his collaborator. That doesn't mean that Taupin was solely, or even primarily responsible for the hits, just that they both produced their best work together.

Mintball wrote:

I actually found Joseph quite jolly fun – but it has one instantly recognisable show stopper and the rest, to be frank, are pretty much forgettable (and I do have the album).

I would have to disagree. I've seen Joseph a few times and actually played (in the band) in a local production of the show. I think there are a number of very well written pieces of music in the production that work well in the overall context of the storyline. 'Close Every Door' in particular is excellent. Of course (most of) the music in that show won't appeal outside of the theatre setting, as it's very specific to the storyline.

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:12 pm  

So this is really just a discussion about degree then?
If ALW is widely lauded then there has to be a fair amount of basis of credibility for it.
He has a knack, a talent, that he has got off his ass and developed. Skills and talents are pyramidal in my humble estimation, for every great performer there are a raft of lesser talents below and so on.
He is near the top of the pyramid in his field. Which is writing and producing musicals and creating a swathe of public support in his work. He's an entertainer, I don't suppose even he would claim to be exceptionally gifted.
But his work is very pleasant on the ear.
To dismiss him as not being a heavyweight is beside the point.
He's done it, what talent he has had, he has used it.
Which most people don't do, they hide their light under a bushel and then criticise those that have the balls to go out and achieve something.

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:19 pm  

Mintball wrote:

The way in which he is hailed and has been lauded and rewarded by the state is out of all proportion to his abilities. And it is not credible – or it certainly shouldn't be.

But that is not the same as Lloyd Webber not being credible as a songwriter. Whatever you think of his ratio of good to bad songs, or of how he compares to Rogers and Hammerstein (and others), to say that the man responsible for 'Music Of The Night', 'Don't Cry For Me Argentina' and 'Love Changes Everything' is not a credible songwriter is either snobbery or stupidity. As we cannot level accusations of stupidity at you, that only leaves one option...

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:21 pm  

Will anyone come to the rescue of a damsel in distress?

Anyway ...
Isn't the art of winning this miserable contest to put the song out in advance?
That German winning thing that won two years or so ago being a example.
It shouldn't be allowed.
God that German song was miserable!
Miserable is my word for today.

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:47 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

But that is not the same as Lloyd Webber not being credible as a songwriter. Whatever you think of his ratio of good to bad songs, or of how he compares to Rogers and Hammerstein (and others), to say that the man responsible for 'Music Of The Night', 'Don't Cry For Me Argentina' and 'Love Changes Everything' is not a credible songwriter is either snobbery or stupidity. As we cannot level accusations of stupidity at you, that only leaves one option...

I accept that those are his 'big' songs - just as i have been quite clear, in this discussion, tha he has written memorable songs - but they're not close to even the 'lessor' songs of someone like Gershwin. And please note I haven't even mentioned one Stephen Sondhiem.

Honestly: I don't know how to love him isn't even close to, say, something like Can't Help Loving' Thy Man from a certain 1927 show by Rogers and Hart.

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:24 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

But that is not the same as Lloyd Webber not being credible as a songwriter. Whatever you think of his ratio of good to bad songs, or of how he compares to Rogers and Hammerstein (and others), to say that the man responsible for 'Music Of The Night', 'Don't Cry For Me Argentina' and 'Love Changes Everything' is not a credible songwriter is either snobbery or stupidity. As we cannot level accusations of stupidity at you, that only leaves one option...

Not sure how you define SONGwriter? But, Lloyd Webber did not write the words to any of those.

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:30 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Rock God X wrote:

But that is not the same as Lloyd Webber not being credible as a songwriter. Whatever you think of his ratio of good to bad songs, or of how he compares to Rogers and Hammerstein (and others), to say that the man responsible for 'Music Of The Night', 'Don't Cry For Me Argentina' and 'Love Changes Everything' is not a credible songwriter is either snobbery or stupidity. As we cannot level accusations of stupidity at you, that only leaves one option...

I accept that those are his 'big' songs - just as i have been quite clear, in this discussion, tha he has written memorable songs - but they're not close to even the 'lessor' songs of someone like Gershwin. And please note I haven't even mentioned one Stephen Sondhiem.

Honestly: I don't know how to love him isn't even close to, say, something like Can't Help Loving' Thy Man from a certain 1927 show by Rogers and Hart.

So it's not accurate to say that he's not credible as a songwriter, just that you personally don't rate him as highly as you rate others.

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:31 pm  

Saw Aspects of Love - it was absolute Sh**e. Then to add insult to injury one of my then colleagues booked it to entertain European colleagues. I therefore had to therefore suffer (and I mean suffer) it twice!

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:33 pm  

Dally wrote:

Rock God X wrote:

But that is not the same as Lloyd Webber not being credible as a songwriter. Whatever you think of his ratio of good to bad songs, or of how he compares to Rogers and Hammerstein (and others), to say that the man responsible for 'Music Of The Night', 'Don't Cry For Me Argentina' and 'Love Changes Everything' is not a credible songwriter is either snobbery or stupidity. As we cannot level accusations of stupidity at you, that only leaves one option...

Not sure how you define SONGwriter? But, Lloyd Webber did not write the words to any of those.

Obviously. As I made clear when I mentioned his collaboration with the lyricist Tim Rice.