Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:11 pm  

JerryChicken wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23587916 Have a read of the link above first, its a lesson on how to approach the cycling issue in a sensible way that involves everyone, and as a result ends up involving everyone in participation. It raised its head today on a Radio 2 phone-in about a parliamentary group advising that a new rule of thumb should apply when applying blame on road accidents, namely that might is not right but the opposite - if you are in the bigger form of transport then you expected to show a higher level of care towards other road users - this has been interpreted to mean that cyclists involved in road traffic accidents will have to be proved to have been reckless before they can be financially (and them legally) blamed by insurers/plod/prosecutors. Likewise HGV and PSV drivers would also be expected to demonstrate a greater level of care towards car drivers, and indeed cyclists towards pedestrians (just for you Mintball). I've ridden in Holland and Denmark and its an eye-opener to be the road user who has absolute right of way over motorised traffic, as someone said today its like the law of the sea where powered boats have to give way to sail - in Holland especially I didn't see any main roads that didn't have a cycle lane (separated from the road by a kerb) and the cycle lanes that go between towns and villages would often veer away from the roads and take a more direct route, tarmaced, kerbed, and with street lighting, but the best thing was finding that as you rode along a cycle route and approached a junction shared with motorised traffic you'd find a large red button mounted on a post 100 yards before the junction which you could get quite adept at hitting with the palm of a hand as you rode past - this would then change the sequence of the traffic lights in the same way that a Pelican crossing does and if you timed it right you wouldn't even have to stop at the lights as they'd be green for you when you got there. Just simple joined up thinking by planners and a recognition that if you make it a more pleasant experience for cyclists, then more people will cycle, fewer will drive (how many daily journeys are less than 10 miles), and less public transport will be required. I've also commuted on my bike to work in Leeds down one of the arterial routes into the city, its not always pleasant and you need a rear view handlebar mirror and watch it constantly, the only good thing being that I could do the journey into work quicker on the bike than I could in my car (coming back home uphill was a bit different though). Also in the news this week is the fact that Leeds City Council will be spending a considerable sum of money on resurfacing work in the city over the next twelve months in readiness for the start of The Tour de France next year - it would be nice to think that the money wasn't just spent on throwing some more tar in potholes and instead was spent on proper cycle routes into the city (there is an official one, but its absolutely ridiculous in its diversions through housing estates to avoid major roads), but somehow I just don't think that will happen anytime soon. Sweeping generalisation but in Leeds the rule is " I'm a cyclist why don't you f off the pavement when I'm speeding along them and allow me to cause chaos and go down 1 way streets the wrong way as well as through pedestrian crossings and lights at red." That just about sums it up.

JerryChicken wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23587916 Have a read of the link above first, its a lesson on how to approach the cycling issue in a sensible way that involves everyone, and as a result ends up involving everyone in participation. It raised its head today on a Radio 2 phone-in about a parliamentary group advising that a new rule of thumb should apply when applying blame on road accidents, namely that might is not right but the opposite - if you are in the bigger form of transport then you expected to show a higher level of care towards other road users - this has been interpreted to mean that cyclists involved in road traffic accidents will have to be proved to have been reckless before they can be financially (and them legally) blamed by insurers/plod/prosecutors. Likewise HGV and PSV drivers would also be expected to demonstrate a greater level of care towards car drivers, and indeed cyclists towards pedestrians (just for you Mintball). I've ridden in Holland and Denmark and its an eye-opener to be the road user who has absolute right of way over motorised traffic, as someone said today its like the law of the sea where powered boats have to give way to sail - in Holland especially I didn't see any main roads that didn't have a cycle lane (separated from the road by a kerb) and the cycle lanes that go between towns and villages would often veer away from the roads and take a more direct route, tarmaced, kerbed, and with street lighting, but the best thing was finding that as you rode along a cycle route and approached a junction shared with motorised traffic you'd find a large red button mounted on a post 100 yards before the junction which you could get quite adept at hitting with the palm of a hand as you rode past - this would then change the sequence of the traffic lights in the same way that a Pelican crossing does and if you timed it right you wouldn't even have to stop at the lights as they'd be green for you when you got there. Just simple joined up thinking by planners and a recognition that if you make it a more pleasant experience for cyclists, then more people will cycle, fewer will drive (how many daily journeys are less than 10 miles), and less public transport will be required. I've also commuted on my bike to work in Leeds down one of the arterial routes into the city, its not always pleasant and you need a rear view handlebar mirror and watch it constantly, the only good thing being that I could do the journey into work quicker on the bike than I could in my car (coming back home uphill was a bit different though). Also in the news this week is the fact that Leeds City Council will be spending a considerable sum of money on resurfacing work in the city over the next twelve months in readiness for the start of The Tour de France next year - it would be nice to think that the money wasn't just spent on throwing some more tar in potholes and instead was spent on proper cycle routes into the city (there is an official one, but its absolutely ridiculous in its diversions through housing estates to avoid major roads), but somehow I just don't think that will happen anytime soon. Sweeping generalisation but in Leeds the rule is " I'm a cyclist why don't you f off the pavement when I'm speeding along them and allow me to cause chaos and go down 1 way streets the wrong way as well as through pedestrian crossings and lights at red." That just about sums it up.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:11 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

Painting a cycle lane on an existing road is, to my mind, insufficient, at least a kerb is required to separate the lane from the road to keep motorists from parking on the cycle lane or driving along it.
I'd also like to see, in conjunction with anti-congestion charging, park and ride car parks on major roads into cities, where lockable bike racks/lockers for overnight storage of privately-owned bikes, plus bikes-for-hire, as well as buses into town are available.

To be honest all that is needed is a painted lane for the morning (or evening) commute to be a much more pleasant affair, I used to use the cycle lane from Headingley up to Cookridge every night at around 5.30pm, it just a three foot red stripe down the left hand side of the A660, one of the busiest commuter roads into and out of Leeds but the lane provides enough separation from cars as to take away the ever present fear that some distracted idiot is going to pass to close or even hit you from behind and it also takes away any guesswork on your part, "how far out from the kerb can I ride to avoid drain covers and potholes etc".

Kerbs and special traffic control lights would be fantastic but not absolutely necessary, even when the A660 crosses the ring road at Weetwood roundabout (as busy a roundabout that you'll see at 5.30pm) you have a cycle lane at the white line and even if the lane doesn't go across the roundabout it still gives you space to set yourself up to dive into the flow and it prevents you from holding up a car behind you while waiting for a bike speed sort of gap.

Conversely going back down into Leeds on the same road the bike lane is shared with the bus lane which seems to me to be the sort of suicidal planning decision that could only have been made by someone who has never traveled in anything but a council limousine.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:16 pm  

Leaguefan wrote:

Sweeping generalisation but in Leeds the rule is " I'm a cyclist why don't you f off the pavement when I'm speeding along them and allow me to cause chaos and go down 1 way streets the wrong way as well as through pedestrian crossings and lights at red."

That just about sums it up.

Well again, that sort of attitude diminishes when even simple segregation of bikes is applied, there is no excuse for pavement riding when you have a cycle lane and there is every reason then for proper policing.

Like an earlier poster I just don't understand the attitude of some cyclists who take on the job of urban warrior and film their commutes while looking for similar tools in cars to pick a fight with - there are hundreds of them on YouTube - you need to be defensive in heavy traffic not offensive and as in all walks of life if you go looking for a fight you'll always find one, its just that you versus a car is not a fair fight even if you are recording it on a helmet cam.

At least your relatives won't have to try and imagine your last moments in the funeral home.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:18 pm  

Horatio Yed wrote:

They're allowed to ride side by side, I'll be honest i think a lot of car drivers need to grow up when it comes to cyclists, in London it strikes of jealousy that they can get through traffic easy, while mr rich and unfit sits in his stationary BMW.
Another is they get held up from doing 40mph briefly on the b road to work because they can't overtake.

People rarely cycle side by side, it's a bit of a myth that gets massively overused by cyclist haters. My local PCSO always comes up next to me on his plod pedaller if I'm biking into town as he likes my bike and always wants to chat but that's it.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:51 pm  

Dally wrote:

As someone who walks along one of London's cycling superhighways twice a day, in my experience cyclists do not help themselves. Every day I see them doing things like:

1. Ignoring traffic lights.
2. Crossing junctions when pedestrians have right of way.
3. Undertaking other road vehicles - including HGVs at junctions. It is simply impossible for a lorry driver to see a cyclists on his inside. IMO, any accident involving a left-turning lorry hitting a cyclist on his inside when the lorry driver has been shown to indicate in a timely fashion should be down to the cyclist, who if they survive should be prosecuted.
4. I even still see them riding in dark clothes at night without rear lights!

I think people should be able to cycle safely but currently a large section of them (known as the "lycra mafia") totally diregard other road users, others safety and their own safety.

Help me! I agree with Dally!

May I also add:

5. Cycling on the pavement
6. Hurtling along the canal bank as fast as they can yelling at anglers, boaters and walkers "Get out of the f*@!ing way!"

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:49 pm  

dr_feelgood wrote:

6. Hurtling along the canal bank as fast as they can yelling at anglers, boaters and walkers "Get out of the f*@!ing way!"

The canal towpath from Leeds City Centre out to Saltaire is an ongoing project between British Waterways and Sustrans (the national cycle route people - excellent long distance routes), hard to believe in some places but it will eventually be a properly surfaced cycle and walking path.

Its a mistake in my opinion and I've used it as both a cyclist and a walker, and a dog walker who can't let his dog off the lead to wander free because of the risk to cyclists - pedestrians and cyclists don't mix on the same pavement especially when they are both heading in the same direction, people like to walk in groups, side by side and chat as they walk along, ignoring anything coming up quicker behind them, it just doesn't work.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:18 pm  

The tow path along the Leeds - Liverpool Canal that passes through the Wigan Flashes has been paved really nicely and is excellent for walking along to view the birdlife on the flashes and is also a nice strech of water to fish. It is blighted by mountain bikers. I have long since given up fishing canals close to urban locations due to inconsiderate cyclists and dog walkers, despite the fact that I have to pay to fish them whereas the mountain bikers don't. I don't mind the boats because they were the reason the canals were built and they also pay for the right to use the water.

As an angler I avoid blocking the towpath with my gear, placing my tackle parallel to the bank. I use a standard rod and reel so don't need to occasionally block the path with a long pole. Next year the Div 2 National Championships are on the Wigan DAA section of the Leeds - Liverpool canal. Can see there being some conflict of interest then as the vast majority of the several hundred anglers taking part will be pole fishing.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:51 pm  

dr_feelgood wrote:

The tow path along the Leeds - Liverpool Canal that passes through the Wigan Flashes has been paved really nicely and is excellent for walking along to view the birdlife on the flashes and is also a nice strech of water to fish. It is blighted by mountain bikers. I have long since given up fishing canals close to urban locations due to inconsiderate cyclists and dog walkers, despite the fact that I have to pay to fish them whereas the mountain bikers don't. I don't mind the boats because they were the reason the canals were built and they also pay for the right to use the water.

As an angler I avoid blocking the towpath with my gear, placing my tackle parallel to the bank. I use a standard rod and reel so don't need to occasionally block the path with a long pole. Next year the Div 2 National Championships are on the Wigan DAA section of the Leeds - Liverpool canal. Can see there being some conflict of interest then as the vast majority of the several hundred anglers taking part will be pole fishing.

I wonder how many of those cyclists have a canal permit? It doesn't cost anything but is still a legal requirement to cycle along a towpath

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:11 am  

cod'ead wrote:

I wonder how many of those cyclists have a canal permit? It doesn't cost anything but is still a legal requirement to cycle along a towpath

I've got one, its a useless piece of bureaucracy that I'm not even sure anyone in authority even knows exists, you can download them from the BW web site and fill it in yourself leaving only your name and address behind - and never in a million years will you ever get asked to produce it anywhere, in fact I probably threw mine in the bin so I might run another unnecessary copy off.

On the subject of fishing the canals, I agree with the previous poster, canals+fishing+walking=good, mix in cyclists and its not good and I've approached the problem from both ends, but it will get worse because as I mentioned before, Sustrans are part-managing some of the Leeds/Liverpool towpath now in return for listing as a route, a canal towpath can be an excellent place to cycle (its generally flat) and great to take the kids on their bikes and get the whole family cycling in a traffic free environment but some days its like the walking equivalent of the M1 on the Leeds-Shipley stretch.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:41 am  

El Barbudo wrote:

On the other hand, the A64 eastbound towards York has had a cycle path, separated from the main road by a generously wide grass verge, ever since it was upgraded to dual carriageway (either just before or shortly post-WWII) and, whilst it might well get used, I have personally never seen a cyclist on it.
Ditto regarding the beautifully-smooth and brand new cycle track alongside the Calderdale Way (aka Elland Bypass) ... not a soul to be seen on it.

At the other end of the scale, Hull, Norwich, Oxford and urban York strike me as places that are already bike-keen.

A570 Rainford bypass, large dual carriageway with wide cyclepaths seperated from the main carriageway on either side yet the lycra brigade (including Sir Brad himself) are usually found on the main road with the lorries and busses. I just don't get it.