Re: The Mark Duggan verdict. : Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:55 pm  

guess who wrote:

A court of law has proved that didnt happen. So your point is?

Actually a court of law decided that a firearms officer’s response to the specific threat he faced was lawful.

It did not decide that it was ok for the reasons you highlighted. Had the justification you highlighted been the justification they used, it is likely that officer would be facing a murder charge.

Re: The Mark Duggan verdict. : Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:56 pm  

guess who wrote:

A court of law has proved that didnt happen. So your point is?

A court of law has decided that this didn't happen.
They haven't proved it.

Re: The Mark Duggan verdict. : Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:01 pm  

Stand-Offish wrote:

A court of law has decided that this didn't happen on the balance of probabilities.
They haven't proved it.

Just to make it 100% accurate,

Re: The Mark Duggan verdict. : Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:03 pm  

Big Graeme wrote:

Just to make it 100% accurate,

You are correct.

Re: The Mark Duggan verdict. : Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:14 pm  

The family's solicitor Marcia Willis Stewart seemed to use rather emotive language outside the court too...

"On August 4, 2011 an unarmed man was shot down in Tottenham. Today we have had what we can only call a perverse judgment. The jury found that he had no gun in his hand and yet he was gunned down. For us that's an unlawful killing."

"The family are in a state of shock and we would ask that you respect their shock. They can't believe that this has been the outcome. No gun in his hand and yet he was killed - murdered as they have said, no gun in his hand."

The jury said that they believed the police officer when he stated that he had an honest and reasonable belief that Mark Duggan still had the gun when he shot him.

Surely a solicitor should understand that that is all that is required ?

Re: The Mark Duggan verdict. : Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:48 pm  

Stand-Offish wrote:

Sorry to ask you to do my donkey work FA, but seeing as you are on the case so to speak, can you furnish me with the account of how the gun was thrown into the field.
I am not questioning that Duggan threw it or suggesting that it was planted.
It's just that for Duggan to throw it there he had to have opened the door or wound the window down at some stage.
Now I can tell, as a driver, if this has occurred.
What did the taxi driver say?

I don't know if there was any direct evidence positively explaining how the gun came to be where it was other than the Guardian reported the taxi driver as saying:

According to the taxi driver, Mark Duggan left the car and ran:
"The car that had stopped – men got out of it very quickly who were carrying guns in their hands. Then I heard the sound of my rear door opening. I saw that Mark Duggan got out and ran. At the same time, I heard firing from the front. I saw shots strike Mark Duggan. He fell to the ground".

According to the IPCC at the time, the evidence that Duggan got out and ran was corroborated by at least one officer.

Again according to the Guardian:

Witnesses told the IPCC that they saw police throw the gun over the fence.[45] The IPCC initially reported that three officers had also witnessed an officer throw the gun, but later retracted this report.

It will be interesting to read what they say about that when they produce their final report, although due to their misinformation and criticisms of their investigation, its conclusions are doomed before they are ever even made. As well as the other many curious aspects - including the police moving the car from the scene and then bringing it back - it being initially denied that they had authorised this.

Re: The Mark Duggan verdict. : Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:19 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

I don't know if there was any direct evidence positively explaining how the gun came to be where it was other than the Guardian reported the taxi driver as saying:
According to the IPCC at the time, the evidence that Duggan got out and ran was corroborated by at least one officer.

Again according to the Guardian:
It will be interesting to read what they say about that when they produce their final report, although due to their misinformation and criticisms of their investigation, its conclusions are doomed before they are ever even made. As well as the other many curious aspects - including the police moving the car from the scene and then bringing it back - it being initially denied that they had authorised this.

Cheers FA.
It's all very murky, which is a bit depressing.

Re: The Mark Duggan verdict. : Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:08 pm  

JerryChicken wrote:

The family's solicitor Marcia Willis Stewart seemed to use rather emotive language outside the court too...

The jury said that they believed the police officer when he stated that he had an honest and reasonable belief that Mark Duggan still had the gun when he shot him.

Surely a solicitor should understand that that is all that is required ?

I should think the solicitor's problem is that the officer gave firm and unequivocal evidence that Duggan definitely had a gun, and that the gun was pointed at the officer. Not "something that looked like a gun", but very specifically, a gun in a sock. And a gun in a sock was recovered from the scene, so that gun. So taking the jury's findings at face value, if they find that Duggan had no gun at that time, but was specifically said to have been shot because he not only had a gun but was pointing it at police, then the question would be on what any such "honest and reasonable belief" could possibly be based. I must admit that one beats me. As would any suggestion that an experienced and highly trained firearms officer could be certain he saw a gun in a sock where there was no such thing.

Re: The Mark Duggan verdict. : Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:10 pm  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

I agree - However, I think people like Duggan are a stain on society and, as such, I won't lose any sleep over his demise.

To compare his death with Hillsborough is laughable - One was the death of 96 innocent people watching a football match, the other was the death of a toerag who would probably have met an early death anyway - Unfortunately, it just happened to be at the hands of the police, giving his family and cohorts the chance to have their time in the limelight, crying injustice and other laughable nonsense.

agree with that

Re: The Mark Duggan verdict. : Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:55 pm  

Based on what I've read I don't think there was a case for recording a verdict of unlawful killing. But I was surprised that, having decided that Duggan didn't have a gun when he was shot, they didn't record an open verdict.