Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:31 pm  

The Establishment must truly hate Corbyn.

Latest smear attempt is he's an anti-semite apparently.

What I find amusing is that some of my friends who have been veering towards UKIP are warming to him because of the Establishments hatred of him. Now if he could be convinced to end the free movement of labour I think he could actually win an election for the Labour Party.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:33 pm  

The Chair Maker wrote:

I personally want Corbyn to win the new party election.

The Red Torys can then leave the Labour party and allow it to return to its working class roots. They can then form a new party.

The harsh reality is that many Labour MPS would have naturally joined the Conservative party in the 1960's.

Corbyn for all the media rhetoric of being a left winger is actually pretty centrist when looked at in the historical context.

The referendum has placed a bomb under the political status quo within the UK. Both Labour and Conservative parties are tearing each other apart.

My personal view is that if the Blairites leave labour to form Red Tory, then if someone like Gove gets elected tory leader, some of the more traditional tory elements would lean towards joining the red torys. This then further splits the political vote, and makes a further case for the UK to modernise its political system.

If they both join the Lib Dems , bingo !

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:53 pm  

LeighGionaire wrote:

The Establishment must truly hate Corbyn.

Latest smear attempt is he's an anti-semite apparently.

Within weeks of a concerted smear campaign seeking to discredit the left's views on Israel, he starts making some lazy comparisons between ISIS and Israel.

And yes, I know what he really said. It wasn't as bad as is being portrayed, but I shook my head at it as soon as I saw it and think he's on very dodgy ground.

The real point though is that if in these moments he is doing incalculably stupid things like this then he has absolutely no hope at all of ever controlling the narrative. Ever.

Who wants a progressive always being forced to be a reactionary in the face of their own fsck ups? And as leader, too?

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:06 pm  

LeighGionaire wrote:

The Establishment must truly hate Corbyn.

Latest smear attempt is he's an anti-semite apparently.

What I find amusing is that some of my friends who have been veering towards UKIP are warming to him because of the Establishments hatred of him. Now if he could be convinced to end the free movement of labour I think he could actually win an election for the Labour Party.

Hardly the first time that anti-Semitism has been flung around as an accusation – and vbfg is completely right in his analysis of this being overdone.

However, partly because he had never been a serious 'contender' for the leadership previously, once of the main problems with Corbyn is that he has no established team around him. The nature of today's UK political scene is Spads and Wonks etc. And because, from day one, people in the party (primarily, but not exculsively, the Parliamentary party) worked against him, this feels unreasonable.

Unfortunately – and from a personal perspective, I think that he has brough important issues to the fore (the need to build social housing being but one) he has few leadership skills and has appointed a 'team' on the basis of an understandablly defensive response to much from the rest of the PLP.

The possibility – and it is only that – that we might face a GE in the autumn does, however, urgently raise the issue of his electability beyond the activists and new members – and yes, there have been many new members since his leadership began.

The party's biggest problem is not an easy one to solve: a swathe of the mainstream media, having denigrated Ed Miliband for how he ate a sandwich, and then invented a Labour-SNP coalition, has now decided that truth is no longer a problem.

In the case of Corbyn, they now simply ignore his presence at, say, loads of Remain events – thus he is 'doing nothing'.

All sides flawed. The whole thing a mess. The People of the UK not actually being treated as the main concern.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:01 pm  

Mintball wrote:

...SNIP...

In the case of Corbyn, they now simply ignore his presence at, say, loads of Remain events – thus he is 'doing nothing'.

.

The above shows he is doing something right and must be supported. The moment we get someone who the media support and publicise, is the time we should be really concerned, as that means they are owned by them.

The whole point about Corbyn is that people know he hasn't been bought. The very fact he has so far resisted resigning is another sign of his independence and strength of will. The Blairites and media are pushing him to resign because that lets them off the hook re the membership. The fact he hasn't gone "touch wood" is calling their bluff, as to stand against him is akin to political suicide.
For Labour to get rid of Corbyn in this way will destroy the labour party amongst the grass roots. The Party Conference would be an absolute war zone.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:43 pm  

And in the opposite corner the sane one is Theresa May.

These are the stakes.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:57 pm  

The Chair Maker wrote:

The above shows he is doing something right and must be supported. The moment we get someone who the media support and publicise, is the time we should be really concerned, as that means they are owned by them.

The whole point about Corbyn is that people know he hasn't been bought. The very fact he has so far resisted resigning is another sign of his independence and strength of will. The Blairites and media are pushing him to resign because that lets them off the hook re the membership. The fact he hasn't gone "touch wood" is calling their bluff, as to stand against him is akin to political suicide.
For Labour to get rid of Corbyn in this way will destroy the labour party amongst the grass roots. The Party Conference would be an absolute war zone.

Absolutely. You could tell this from the vitriol and lies that have been poured at him continually from the media and the right ever since he was on the leadership ballot. Ranging from describing him as extreme left-wing to a national security risk, to he's dangerous to the nation, to now he's weak.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:39 pm  

Corbyn is a puppet - he is a front for the like of McDonald - he will do what he is told.

As a leader he is unelectable - he lacks gravitas - intellectually and actions.

Put him up against May and she will destroy him and the Labour party in one fell swoop it would be carnage.

Waiting in the wings keeping her powder try is Yvette Cooper who would be significantly more electable than Corbyn

Last but not least - you cannot have a main man who will not press the button - end of.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:52 pm  

The best outcome for Labour at this point is to split.

The leadership and the local party seem to be pretty much in step with each other. The people of the constituencies voted for the rebels. Each wants to protect their mandate.

This is my preferred outcome right now. I have considerably more faith in the prospect of a Lib-Lab pact than I do in the current leadership ever controlling the narrative. Without any ability to do that they are toast. And so are we.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:22 pm  

Prior to the Eu referendum Labour had increased their share of the vote, performed better than expected in the local elections, won 4 major mayoral elections, as well as moving ahead of the conservatives in some of the polls. All this on top of increasing their membership massively. What more do they want a leader to do given the position they were in after the general elections. Can anyone really imagine anyone else in the leadership race doing any betterment Now, I don't agree with a lot of his opinions, but at least I know what they are. Corbyn has galvanized young voters more than anything other politian in my life time, and given the rise of more radical political rhetoric in the last couple of years it seems foolish to right Corbyn off. An "I can't believe it's not tories" Labour party is the last thing we need.
As for the accusations of antisemitism, it was a bit of a "face palm" moment. Although I don't think he said anything that wasn't true, and people need to realise that criticising the Isreali government is not the same thing as antisemitism, you just know the media would twist it in the way that they have.