Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:23 pm  

With the power recently given to the government to change employment law Unions are more important than ever, which sadly many will find when savings need to be made.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:34 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

We all know that voting against a strike if its called is difficult - the idea that its any way democratic is delusional - its like an election in Africa!!

I think your last statement is incorrect - we a distrustful relationship between employers and the representatives of employees who work to a set agenda in which the individual is lost. The guy/girl from the union wont lose their job if their intransigence leads to the employer taking a course of action that leads to loss of jobs. McClusky soon piped-down when Ratcliffe said enough is enough I don't need this I will close Grangemouth. To blame the employer all the time is unfair.

Tbf, when I was in a Union and was balloted on industrial action I didn’t feel remotely pressured in how I voted. It wasn’t like it was a show of hands in the car park.

It isn’t always the employers’ fault or even a case of there being fault at all. It’s about power, frankly - and collective bargaining, like in many walks of life, is more powerful. There’s a loss of fine individual control, maybe... but across a large organisation would management want to be negotiating with every individual every time there’s a need for consultation and change?

Work is becoming more transient, and labour relations will no doubt evolve to reflect that.

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:22 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

Tbf, when I was in a Union and was balloted on industrial action I didn’t feel remotely pressured in how I voted. It wasn’t like it was a show of hands in the car park.

It isn’t always the employers’ fault or even a case of there being fault at all. It’s about power, frankly - and collective bargaining, like in many walks of life, is more powerful. There’s a loss of fine individual control, maybe... but across a large organisation would management want to be negotiating with every individual every time there’s a need for consultation and change?

Work is becoming more transient, and labour relations will no doubt evolve to reflect that.

The company doesn't need to negotiate with every employee - they simply need to set guidelines/pay grades and then the managers adjust between the upper and lower limit to reflect performance - not difficult really.

The power in the private sector lies with the employer the opposite is the case in the public sector. Jim Ratcliffe showed the power of what private businesses can bring to the table - not so easy in the public sector - can you close down refuse collection. Collective bargaining is a very blunt tool and seldom delivers the best outcome because it doesn't allow for better performers who in that scenario are in with the rest - dumbs down - it cannot do otherwise i.e. lowest common denominator. Take SL what suits Leeds/Wigan/Saints is not the same as Wakefield/Salford etc so any deal has to be dumbed down.

Unions are an outdated concept and not fit for today's work in the private sector - yes in the public sector where progress is snail-pace a contributory factor is definitely the intransigence of the unions. Will they evolve - perhaps some fresh unions that don't carry the history/practises of the current crop of established unions?

[Mild Rover]

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:09 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The company doesn't need to negotiate with every employee - they simply need to set guidelines/pay grades and then the managers adjust between the upper and lower limit to reflect performance - not difficult really.

The power in the private sector lies with the employer the opposite is the case in the public sector.

A car dealer doesn’t ‘need’ to deal with the illogical, shameless, psychotic brilliance of my wife’s negotiation - they’d be perfectly capable of selling me my new automobile within a narrow internally-agreed range of the list price. Yet, for some strange reason, I take her along.

Power isn’t binary... it can be taken, or at very least mitigated. And it can shift.

Employers and employees have shared goals (a successful and profitable enterprise) but there’s a tension there about how the rewards should be divided and both sides try to rig the market, and sell it as a moral good. Sometimes it is, depending somewhat on your perspective.

I agree that unions have become less relevant. The younger generation are much more flexible and self-reliant, and rather less naively loyal than mine. They have a different set of values and tools, as every generation needs to.

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:54 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

A car dealer doesn’t ‘need’ to deal with the illogical, shameless, psychotic brilliance of my wife’s negotiation - they’d be perfectly capable of selling me my new automobile within a narrow internally-agreed range of the list price. Yet, for some strange reason, I take her along.

Power isn’t binary... it can be taken, or at very least mitigated. And it can shift.

Employers and employees have shared goals (a successful and profitable enterprise) but there’s a tension there about how the rewards should be divided and both sides try to rig the market, and sell it as a moral good. Sometimes it is, depending somewhat on your perspective.

I agree that unions have become less relevant. The younger generation are much more flexible and self-reliant, and rather less naively loyal than mine. They have a different set of values and tools, as every generation needs to.

Car dealers are interesting - I find them very easy to deal with I have a price I want to pay - I tell them at the start they either want to sell it at that price or they don't - saves so much time. If they don't somebody else will.

I disagree - power is binary either you have the upper hand or you don't - there is no middle ground. One party cannot be forced not matter what the threat if they don't want to go there.

We agree on the unions - outdated and incapable of adapting

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:07 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

What are you talking about - perhaps if we all followed what went on at the Unite at Falkirk

Ok, I'll educate you. A union cant take industrial action unless 40% of those eligible to vote are in favour. Also, the industrial action must be in line with what was voted upon. So, in the case of Brexit ~34% of those eligible to vote voted in favour of leaving. The percentage voting for a Tory government was somewhat less. So, please explain why unions are not democratic whilst the referendum and GE were.

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:10 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Car dealers are interesting - I find them very easy to deal with I have a price I want to pay - I tell them at the start they either want to sell it at that price or they don't - saves so much time. If they don't somebody else will.

I disagree - power is binary either you have the upper hand or you don't - there is no middle ground. One party cannot be forced not matter what the threat if they don't want to go there.

We agree on the unions - outdated and incapable of adapting

As long as your alright then

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:24 am  

Jukesays wrote:

As long as your alright then

I am the one taking all the risk, I put all the money in - its my family's house on the line - so yes its pretty important that the tail doesn't wag the dog.

If the union is so good at running businesses let them get on with it - we all know what the result would be if they applied their own demands to their own business - it wouldn't last two minutes but they don't and therein lies the crux of the matter.

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:29 am  

silver2 wrote:

Ok, I'll educate you. A union cant take industrial action unless 40% of those eligible to vote are in favour. Also, the industrial action must be in line with what was voted upon. So, in the case of Brexit ~34% of those eligible to vote voted in favour of leaving. The percentage voting for a Tory government was somewhat less. So, please explain why unions are not democratic whilst the referendum and GE were.

40% of the union membership not 40% of the workforce - for a start. So if the union call their members out what happens to non-union members who do the same job, they are also expected to strike - difficult to cross picket lines as you well know - that is one of the reasons why it isn't democratic - but then an educated man like you knew that (sic)

[Mild Rover]

Re: Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. : Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:55 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

40% of the union membership not 40% of the workforce - for a start. So if the union call their members out what happens to non-union members who do the same job, they are also expected to strike - difficult to cross picket lines as you well know - that is one of the reasons why it isn't democratic - but then an educated man like you knew that (sic)

As I understand it, non-Union members are not allowed to strike. For me personally, crossing a picket line was difficult, even though it was the less than militant UCU - just didn’t feel right. So, because I hadn’t got around to joining initially, I had to take a day of annual leave. Next time, I was on the picket line. That was kinda boring.