Re: New sides : Fri May 01, 2020 8:54 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Therein lies the issue with socialism - everyone is equal apart from those who are more equal than the rest. All those on here are happy to spout the rhetoric as long as their lifestyle is not impacted in ensuring others get a leg up. Socialism is about dragging everyone down - its the only way to achieve equality as there has to be a big number to support the ruling class.

Absolute nonsense.
So, the beloved NHS, brought in by a socialist government, mush to the despair of the despair of some right wing politicians, is paid for through a progressive tax system and is free at point of service.

Just take a glance accross the pond and see just how great the health system in the States is functioning at a time of desperate need.

Your interpretation of socialism is that it "drags everyone down" and yet, the principles are the exact opposite.
Whereas, the Tory view is look after yourself first and screw the rest.

It's quite refreshing at the moment to see all of the so called better off having to rely on the people much lower down the pecking order.
We would literally have ground to a halt without care workers, nurses, shop assistants, delivery drivers etc and yet, when we come through the other end, they will be the ones getting shat on (again).

I know that many, many, businesses are failing and will continue to do so, through absolutely no fault of their own, which is something that may hit Boris and Co at some point in the future but, as I said, it's refreshing to see those that are keeping the job running, finally getting some credit for well earned credit.

Maybe, society will become a little more fair at the end of all of this but, I wont hold my breath.

[Mild Rover]

Re: New sides : Fri May 01, 2020 9:20 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Name me one Socialist country...

To be honest you could have stopped there. There’s no such thing... even where we get closer, like Cuba, we’re going to take a ‘no true Scotsman’ approach to the argument, just as you would with struggling/failing authoritarian right wing regimes. And it isn’t like the rest of the Caribbean is full of thriving economies.

Name me one purely capitalist country where the standard of living is even a little bit higher than an ‘average’ well-regulated country, where government plays a significant role in safeguarding the welfare of its citizens e.g. Sweden/Germany/UK/Belgium/Switzerland etc.

Singapore and the US, maybe. But even then, they are highly de-regulated rather than unregulated. We’re arguing along a spectrum... and we both want Sweden.

There’s so much to be positive about in the UK, historically and currently (as well as plenty of appalling stuff). I think the good comes more from stuff like the foundation of the co-operative movement... some others (straw man alert) might credit the playing fields of Eton. Not many of us see as desirable, a complete end to private property or to a self-defeating abandonment of all sense of shared societal responsibility in the pursuit of profit.

Re: New sides : Fri May 01, 2020 9:55 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Maybe, society will become a little more fair at the end of all of this but, I wont hold my breath.

It'd be great if previously unskilled workers, who are now key workers and essential to the running of the country, get the recognition they deserve. And it would be great if the public stick to their new found unfavourable views of the hypocritical billionaire classes, demanding handouts while they sit on piles of cash on their islands.

Personally, I think we'll see those at the top making sure those at the bottom pay for it, and we'll carry on with the whole austerity illusion, just under a Boris rebrand, and accompanied by a catchy 3 word slogan. I'll go with a period of 'restraint', and the sell will be "Squeeze for Britain". It's catchy, it's fun, it appeals to the war loving 'blitz spirit' crowd, despite the fact it will be miserable for millions. I can just see Bozo now, his hand in that trademark 'clenched fist with thumb over the top', "we're going to 'Squeeze for Britain' during this period of restraint, and I promise each and every one of you - it will be worth it".

Re: New sides : Fri May 01, 2020 10:20 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I think nobody is more of a novelty act than you - nothing is ever your fault always somebody else's PPE is just the latest in your neat deflection technique - look in the mirror and seriously ask the question - can I really walk on the surface of the River Aire because that is how you come across

If you believe Maslow and most experts give weight to his writings - altruism is a pretty high up need - once your personal/family situation is secure.

No surprise to me that your response is absolute nonsense - with no reference to the original argument.

FYI - plenty of things are my fault; the failings of the Govt are not however. And for the record (for the third time) neither I or any other private provider is looking for PPE handouts - I'm quite happy to pay the market rate, as I've always done. But since we didn't have access to the Operation Cygnus findings, we didn't stockpile it; the Govt did have access, but still didn't stockpile it - that's my issue.

As for the socialist country tripe - none exists in the way you're describing it, and I don't know a single socialist who either wants or advocates that; in general, we just want fairness, equality of opportunity and a society that values more than shareholder dividends and impossible, endless growth. Plenty of those exist, as well you know.

Re: New sides : Fri May 01, 2020 10:40 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

To be honest you could have stopped there. There’s no such thing... even where we get closer, like Cuba, we’re going to take a ‘no true Scotsman’ approach to the argument, just as you would with struggling/failing authoritarian right wing regimes. And it isn’t like the rest of the Caribbean is full of thriving economies.

Name me one purely capitalist country where the standard of living is even a little bit higher than an ‘average’ well-regulated country, where government plays a significant role in safeguarding the welfare of its citizens e.g. Sweden/Germany/UK/Belgium/Switzerland etc.

Singapore and the US, maybe. But even then, they are highly de-regulated rather than unregulated. We’re arguing along a spectrum... and we both want Sweden.

There’s so much to be positive about in the UK, historically and currently (as well as plenty of appalling stuff). I think the good comes more from stuff like the foundation of the co-operative movement... some others (straw man alert) might credit the playing fields of Eton. Not many of us see as desirable, a complete end to private property or to a self-defeating abandonment of all sense of shared societal responsibility in the pursuit of profit.

OK name me a country where Socialist principles dominate where the average prosperity of its population is better than those where Capitalism drives the agenda?

[Mild Rover]

Re: New sides : Fri May 01, 2020 11:08 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

OK name me a country where Socialist principles dominate where the average prosperity of its population is better than those where Capitalism drives the agenda?

Can I have Social Democracy and use of median measures of prosperity?

Re: New sides : Fri May 01, 2020 11:16 am  

bren2k wrote:

No surprise to me that your response is absolute nonsense - with no reference to the original argument.

FYI - plenty of things are my fault; the failings of the Govt are not however. And for the record (for the third time) neither I or any other private provider is looking for PPE handouts - I'm quite happy to pay the market rate, as I've always done. But since we didn't have access to the Operation Cygnus findings, we didn't stockpile it; the Govt did have access, but still didn't stockpile it - that's my issue.

As for the socialist country tripe - none exists in the way you're describing it, and I don't know a single socialist who either wants or advocates that; in general, we just want fairness, equality of opportunity and a society that values more than shareholder dividends and impossible, endless growth. Plenty of those exist, as well you know.

Either you are being deliberately obtuse to again deflect but there was plenty in the press about a pandemic being the next great frontier - Gates has been talking about for years. So as clever a fellow as you think you are I would have thought taking all the evidence into account would lead you to a simple conclusion - if this happens, who is going to suffer - predominantly your customers. You being as clever as you think you are would have invested in PPE for when this might happen. Of course you wouldn't have done because that is not a good use of capital now is it. You expected the government to have warehouses full of this stuff just in case - so monies that could have been spent on hip replacements etc can't because its all tied up in PPE - come on get real.

In my life I have not experienced any lack of opportunity - I can from a back to back with an outside toilet in Bradford, I went to Wyke Manor - possibly the worst comprehensive in the Bradford area, I didn't go to university and I have made a pretty good fist life and there are many who have come from worst than me and have done far better than me - to say there is a lack of fairness/opportunity/equality is rubbish - life is what you make of it, I have found the harder I work the bigger the opportunity.

Your comment about profit is an interesting one - endless growth improves the overall standard of living of the citizens - it is no surprise that the overall living standard of the world's population has improved beyond all recognition since the start of the industrial revolution? If you look at all those "new countries" coming into the EU that need supporting they are all those that adopted a hard line socialist dogma.

Re: New sides : Fri May 01, 2020 8:54 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I can from a back to back with an outside toilet in Bradford, I went to Wyke Manor - possibly the worst comprehensive in the Bradford area, I didn't go to university and I have made a pretty good fist life and there are many who have come from worst than me and have done far better than me -.

You were lucky to have a back to back....There were a hundred and sixty of us living in a small shoebox in the middle of the road!

Re: New sides : Sat May 02, 2020 6:16 am  

Mash Butty wrote:

You were lucky to have a back to back....There were a hundred and sixty of us living in a small shoebox in the middle of the road!

You are a very strange guy - hopefully you will be able to get the help you need when the mental health side of the NHS gets back into full swing

Re: New sides : Sat May 02, 2020 1:15 pm  

Mash Butty wrote:

You were lucky to have a back to back....There were a hundred and sixty of us living in a small shoebox in the middle of the road!

You were lucky, we could only dream of a shoebox!
There were 1000 of us and We had to live in a puddle in the gutter at the side of the road, we would have loved a shoebox!