Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:21 pm  

ROBINSON wrote:

That whole post is a pisstake. Come back with something more sensible and we'll talk.

Seemed like fairly simple questions to me.

I'll put it even more simply.
Do you really believe that people on, say, minimum wage have enough spare cash at the end of the month during their working years to be able to create a large-enough pension-pot to see them through their retirement without dying of hypothermia or malnutrition?

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:59 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

Seemed like fairly simple questions to me.

I'll put it even more simply.
Do you really believe that people on, say, minimum wage have enough spare cash at the end of the month during their working years to be able to create a large-enough pension-pot to see them through their retirement without dying of hypothermia or malnutrition?

Course they have. It's not as if there's a massive shortage of affordable housing and every essential commodity is increasing in price quicker than wages are able to keep up, is it?

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:21 pm  

Horatio Yed wrote:

I'm 32, this is waaay before my time when like i said previously the unions had noble intentions…

But now they don’t/now they’re not needed, right?

Now, for instance, when an employer wants to slash the pay of people, they should bend over backwards to allow it to happen? After all, if they can’t pay the bills, then it’s their own fault, eh?

And before you comment, this is happening right now, in various places across the UK, and is not just about high-paid workers, but those on low wages too.

Horatio Yed wrote:

No i don't, what's your point?

You mentioned a strike. You didn’t mention which one or what it was about. Were you referring to 30 November?

Horatio Yed wrote:

If i don't like my job and i think i'm worth more in both wages and respect i'll look for a job that fits those needs rather than moan about how shitty my job is and how i don't get enough money blah blah, have i benefited from union negotiations on my pay, yes i have but i was happy with them originally, if i wasn't i wouldn't have worked for them and looked elsewhere.

Because jobs are 10 a penny …

Horatio Yed wrote:

… 2 wrongs don't make a right, instead of fighting for better more unsustainable conditions, fight for lower wages for the fat cats at the top or a fairer distribution of company wealth(yes i sound mildly contradictory on this).

What ‘wrong’? In the case of 30- November, fighting for the retention of sustainable pension schemes, instead of agreeing to pay more money out of one’s own wages to pay off the bankers’ gambling debts?

Horatio Yed wrote:

Why do i need to? For some moral crusade? i can afford at least another 7-8 years on the pay i'm on without a payrise quite comfortably, if it doesn't go up soon i'm not worried.

You’re the lucky one. Many can’t. But who cares about them, eh?

Horatio Yed wrote:

What do Lollipop ladies do …

Protect children – a worthless role, I admit.

Horatio Yed wrote:

… work in the road and hold a stick should that be decent pay?

Any job should be paid decently. Or are you really going to suggest that someone who goes out to work should not be paid decently?

Horatio Yed wrote:

… teachers are subjective but aren't they striking over pensions not wages …

On 30 November, nobody was striking over wages. It was all about pensions. – Not: ‘we want bigger pensions’, but simply ‘ we want the pensions we signed up to and pay into and don’t want top have to more to pay off the deficit’.

Other actions are taking place because councils and charities are slashing wages. But at least you wouldn’t have to worry about such things, so why worry about anyone else?

Horatio Yed wrote:

… one thing i don't understand with certain professions is that they were jobs they wanted since childhood, they wanted to pass their knowledge if they wanted to teach or doctors wanted to save lives, they didn't grow up thinking i want to be a doctor because of the good pension plan, now all of a sudden that's the most important issue?

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. For many people, they accepted working for lower pay in the public sector rather than the private because they wanted to do a job that benefited society, as you mention. One of the compensations was a decent – not ‘gold-plated’ – but decent pension.

This has been understood for a very, very long time. And just because someone does something that they feel a vocation for doesn’t mean you screw them into poverty in retirement.

Horatio Yed wrote:

So that's the only job in the service is it?

There aren’t many step-down jobs, no. Just as there aren’t if you’re a nurse.

Horatio Yed wrote:

… Ok i'll let you in on my last position in my current job, my position was to report colleagues and all their misdemeanors and the unions job was to try and get them off, even though the people i had reported were doing things detrimental to the company, we had many repeat offenders and the union defended them knowing that the people they were defending were lazy feckless and workshy, they also convinced their members to go on a futile strike and actually lost them money in bonuses even though all managerial positions had their money frozen for 2 years they actually striked for more money?

I bet you’d believe that people who go to court shouldn’t be allowed representation either – if you’ve decided already that they’re guilty.

Horatio Yed wrote:

Minty with her emotive ballcocks twisting an argument i didn't even put out, i've not said they are work shy or scum.

As opposed to: “The majority of public sector workers are overpaid and are simply not value for money...”

How do you work out the value of social care, eh? In financial terms? Or of saving a child from abuse? Let’s get down to brass tacks – what is the financial value of teaching children? Y’know – not the human value, just the financial value.?

I’m afraid this utterly illustrates what’s wrong with this country – the cult of the individual, the cult of greed and the cult of nothing matters except money.

Horatio Yed wrote:

If you don't like the job you're in train for something else, i did.

How long does it take to train to be a paid snitch?

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:44 pm  

SBR wrote:

Do they? Got anything to back that claim up?

There's plenty of evidence, yes.

SBR wrote:

This sounds suspiciously like the claim about the cost of living rising against wages which you previously failed to offer any evidence for. Where does this claim come from?

I may have missed it, but I don't recall you responding to my last answer to you in that debate, about the huge rise in the cost of essentials over the last 30 years, from housing to prescriptions, to education to opthalmic and dental care to fuel and transport costs.

Of course, perhaps you can show that all wages have risen concomitantly ...

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:45 pm  

rob_a wrote:

... 3) I can't afford to lose a days pay.

How much of your pension can you afford to lose?

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:48 pm  

I did should actually be i am, i'm still training.

Paid snitch or not, it's a job and i do it because people want to be paid yet not do their job, if these people wanted to actually knuckle down and do an honest days work my job would be redundant, it's not all i do either, it's a lot nore complex than that.

I’m afraid this utterly illustrates what’s wrong with this country – the cult of the individual, the cult of greed and the cult of nothing matters except money.

And you think there are people out there how are completely altruistic and don't have any self interest whatsoever? William Hesketh Lever for instance on the outside looks like a spledid person (he probably was a very moral man) but if you don't believe that the reason he looked after his employees was anything more than a happy workforce is a more productive work force then you're naive. In otherwords it was in HIS best interest so technically SELFISH dressed up with a frilly pink bow, in a dog eat dog world people will always look after number one, people will always look after number one, you think you're a moral guardian BUT everyone has a different point in which self preservation kicks in, would you be so moral and selfless as to take a bullet instead of a random child in a war situation or would you want to live (extreme yes, but i'm exploring limits so take it to the extreme edge), the cult of the individual has always been present.
Unions dress up solidarity but even that is self preservation, if i walk out on strike in support of a worker and protect his job then he'll do that for me, basically self preservation or cult of the individual dressed up in another frilly pink bow.

There are very few if any people out there who are 100% selfless, some people do good deeds just so THEY can feel good, it's a way of making YOURSELF feel better, it just so happens that a by product is someone else is happy, liberals seem to think they are beyond natural animal instincts like self preservation, selfishness and natural unbalance, we are not all equal and yes that's the way i prefer it.

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:49 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

... On Mintball's idea that being a member of a union is a benefit - in certain circumstances I would agree; if you have a poor attendance record, poor productivity record etc the union will keep you in a job longer than you should stay...

Are you still here posting rubbish? Ah, but of course: no employer would ever mistreat decent staff, would they?

I'm surprised you didn't comment about "thew real world" or scream that you 'thought' someone was telling you not to eat bananas.

Sal Paradise wrote:

... On job security I would suggest you would be better off in a non unionsed culture ...

Not in my experience.

Sal Paradise wrote:

... on money companies will pay the minimum it costs to get the quality the want - having a union presence makes no difference...

Not in my experience.

Sal Paradise wrote:

... The widening gap between the top and the bottom demonstrates the union's impotence in these matters...[/.quote]

It illustrates just how important it was to have so damaged the unions in the 1980s that they have been hampered in fighting back against the changes that have destroyed jobs, communities and lives.

Sal Paradise wrote:

... Unions pushing for unrealistic pay awards reduces an employers competitive advantage - I guarantee if you review companies with unionised and non unionised factories the unit cost of labour will be higher in unionised sites and when push comes to shoove we all know which site will go!!

Who cares if people can barely afford to live. Or, in this wonderful consumer culture of ours, can't afford to contribute to the wider economy, eh?

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:52 pm  

Horatio Yed wrote:

I did should actually be i am, i'm still training.

Paid snitch or not, it's a job and i do it because people want to be paid yet not do their job, if these people wanted to actually knuckle down and do an honest days work my job would be redundant, it's not all i do either, it's a lot nore complex than that...

Sainthood beckons.

Horatio Yed wrote:

And you think there are people out there how are completely altruistic and don't have any self interest whatsoever? William Hesketh Lever for instance on the outside looks like a spledid person (he probably was a very moral man) but if you don't believe that the reason he looked after his employees was anything more than a happy workforce is a more productive work force then you're naive. In otherwords it was in HIS best interest so technically SELFISH dressed up with a frilly pink bow, in a dog eat dog world people will always look after number one, people will always look after number one, you think you're a moral guardian BUT everyone has a different point in which self preservation kicks in, would you be so moral and selfless as to take a bullet instead of a random child in a war situation or would you want to live (extreme yes, but i'm exploring limits so take it to the extreme edge), the cult of the individual has always been present.
Unions dress up solidarity but even that is self preservation, if i walk out on strike in support of a worker and protect his job then he'll do that for me, basically self preservation or cult of the individual dressed up in another frilly pink bow.

Nice way of dodging the point. I think that the way in which we have moved to a 'greed is good' mentality is corrosive. I think that we can't whinge about 'communities' not looking after each other or taking responsibility when we have promoted the individual over everything else. And in the olden days, it wasn't a matter of never thinking of one's self – but of thinking a tad more about everyone else too. The two are not mutually exclusive.

There are very few if any people out there who are 100% selfless, some people do good deeds just so THEY can feel good, it's a way of making YOURSELF feel better, it just so happens that a by product is someone else is happy, liberals seem to think they are beyond natural animal instincts like self preservation, selfishness and natural unbalance, we are not all equal and yes that's the way i prefer it.[/quote]

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:54 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Of car production in the UK what % is Japanese? The Honda factory in the NE is claimed to be the most efficient in Europe, just shows what happens when management and employees work together without the interference of the TGWU!!.

When did the good people of Swindon start speaking geordie?

Re: Bloody Trades Unions ballsing it up again : Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:56 pm  

east stander wrote:

... What they can do is contribute individually to a pension like the rest of the country and not get it for free

Really. So it's not deferred pay, then?