Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:16 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

You cannot base a benefits system on the worst case scenario.

Of course you can infact you should, that is the whole meaning of welfare.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:01 pm  

I'm f*cked when i get old

To put it eloquently

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:53 am  

The limitation of benefits to 2 kids is fair enough. But like with the new mortgage regulations, it surely couldn't be applied to people who already had more than 2 kids when it was brought in? People say 'you shouldn't have kids if you can't pay for them', which is fine, but benefits are a legitimate item when planning 'can I afford this?' scenarios.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:33 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Perhaps if women had to wait until they were the same age as men before they could claim might help?

Already happening. They'll be at equal age (65) by 2018 and then gradually rising to 68 by the end of 2045. I fully expect this to have been changed to 70 before then. This will also be the minimum qualifying age to receive pension means test benefits (Pension Credit)

Huge savings to be made as people will barely survive to see the end of their working lives. Just waiting for a change in the state pension inheritance rules so the government makes sure they get to keep even more.

I could go into far more detail about this if i had the time - seeing as I work for the DWP. Luckily, lots of info available on the HMRC, DWP, and 'GOV' websites for anyone interested to dig a little further.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:17 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Unlike yourself - I don't claim to have the only opinion that matters...

You have done exactly that.

earlier, Sal Paradise wrote:

Those of us fortunate enough to have a job have to work to provide the taxes to provide the funding for the benefits. Can no one see why those that do work resent supporting those that "do not want to work" and would like to see them at least contribute something for the money...

In other words: 'there is only one opinion held by all people who work – and I'm posting it now and here.'

Nobody else who works has any other opinion.

Sal Paradise wrote:

Every thread on here moves away from the original OP often caused by you trying to ram your righteous preachings down everyone's throat....

No. It doesn't. Not least because I don't post on anything like every thread on this forum. And if threads move away from a specific opening, it's often because that's what happens in conversation in, err, 'real life'.

Sal Paradise wrote:

The fact remains how with an ageing population does the country afford the OAP - a debate you seem to have avoided on this thread!! Perhaps the government should just keep borrowing, after all you think the deficit is pretty low - compared to the years after the second world war!!

The deficit is low – compared to the years after WWII. Well done. Perhaps there's hope for your understanding.

And I have not avoided the central issue. I have – more than once – pointed out that there is no need to raise taxes further; just collect corporation tax properly.

You may not agree with that – as is your right. But pretending I haven't made some sort of suggestion when I patently have simply makes you look silly.

Sal Paradise wrote:

Perhaps if women had to wait until they were the same age as men before they could claim might help?

This is happening.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:59 pm  

There is a fair percentage of current / soon to be pensioners that have good retirement incomes - I was shocked to read how many are on pensions of over £40,000pa. So, why not means test the state pension. Say none for anyone with other pension income of over a cetain figure - say £35,000pa. Surely that would go along way to solving the crisis and may even allow an increase in state pension to those with no other source of income?

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:20 pm  

Mintball wrote:

The deficit is low – compared to the years after WWII. Well done. Perhaps there's hope for your understanding.

Genuine question - was the deficit high after WW2? Do you have a link to any article?

I know the national debt was huge, c. 250% of GDP but that went down very quickly. That does not imply a big deficit.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:02 pm  

Dally wrote:

So, why not means test the state pension. Say none for anyone with other pension income of over a cetain figure - say £35,000pa. Surely that would go along way to solving the crisis and may even allow an increase in state pension to those with no other source of income?

You can't means test it in the true terms of 'means testing'.

The State Pension has a number of elements to it. The basic element is based on NI contributions only. For anyone reaching State Pension age after 06/04/10 this would mean needing 30 qualifying years to get the full basic element (new rules). Anyone reaching State Pension age prior to this date needed 46 years (male) & 39 years (female) - (old rules). The basic pension with a full record is currently £107.45 p/w, pro-rated down as a fraction (i.e. 25 qualifying years would get 25/30 of a full basic element) for new rules, and a percentage for old rules.

Other elements - known as additional state pension based on earnings in excess of the minimum amount needed to gain a qualifying year have conditions attached related to having a private/workplace pension. The rules related to this is available on numerous websites, and are far too involved to go into any great detail here. The basic jist though is if you've got your own arrangement, you're not likely to get much of the additional state pension, if any. There are four different versions in operation though - one that ran from 1961-1975, another from 1978-1997, another from 1997-2002, and lastly from 2002 onwards. What you do get though is a reduced rate of NI you pay (1.4% less) on your earnings if you are part of an employers pension scheme.

So in effect those with large private pension pots are already penalised by the state. Also, the state pension is a taxable benefit - along with any private pensions, so if anyone is getting £40k+ per year in combined pensions then they should be paying tax at the appropriate rate with it.

Those with no other source of income are currently supported by Pension Credit - where if a person is in reciept of this they are exempt from council tax and usually live rent free. There is assistence with mortgage interest payments, and a disregard on the first £10k of savings. People with other sources of income can also claim this, but those sources are taken into account against the payable amount.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:37 pm  

Mintball wrote:

You have done exactly that.

In other words: 'there is only one opinion held by all people who work – and I'm posting it now and here.'

Nobody else who works has any other opinion.

No. It doesn't. Not least because I don't post on anything like every thread on this forum. And if threads move away from a specific opening, it's often because that's what happens in conversation in, err, 'real life'.

The deficit is low – compared to the years after WWII. Well done. Perhaps there's hope for your understanding.

And I have not avoided the central issue. I have – more than once – pointed out that there is no need to raise taxes further; just collect corporation tax properly.

You may not agree with that – as is your right. But pretending I haven't made some sort of suggestion when I patently have simply makes you look silly.

This is happening.

What I said was for someone who has a job can you not understand the frustration of those i.e. me who pay taxes against those who simply do not want to work - I was speaking only of myself - I would be surprised if I were a lone voice.

As has been pointed out on numerous threads on here corporation tax is a relatively small tax revenue stream - even if it were collected properly and assuming there will losses in other countries who would be far more stringent on UK companies operating in their countries - it will not cover a potentially huge deficit. Your suggestion makes you look silly.

Comparing a deficit now to the deficit after WW11 is also very silly - you cannot seriously suggest the two things are even comparable. The sad thing is you think they are!!

Equilibrium between the sexes will happen when? not in your lifetime - so to say it is happening is like saying oil is running out!!

It would be interesting for someone to look at how many threads include your self righteous diatribe.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:59 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

What I said was for someone who has a job can you not understand the frustration of those i.e. me who pay taxes against those who simply do not want to work - I was speaking only of myself - I would be surprised if I were a lone voice.

You’re falling into the classic trap of moaning about something that you can’t do anything about. Even if benefits stopped going towards those who ‘don’t want to work’ then it would not mean paying out less tax for the likes of yourself. These taxes will just go on other things that you wouldn’t want your money going towards. Still you highlight the unemployed more than any other group which are financed by taxpayers.

From my experience I discovered that there’s a whole story behind why people don’t want to work anymore. An elderly relative of mine for example got forced to go on Job Seekers Allowance one year before she could collect her pension. She was a carer for many years but lost her job due to public cuts and only had a year left till she could officially retire. Is this the type of person you don’t want your taxes going towards?

Another example would be male relative in my family who has had at least two periods in his life where he was unemployed for five long years but he’s worked full time most of his life. At times he wouldn’t fill in any application form or bother looking for work. But he’s now working full time and will probably do so till retirement. Is this the kind of person you don’t want your taxes going towards?

Then there’s my mate who was unemployed for seven years after he finished university but he’s now working for one of the top technology companies in Leeds and is getting more freelance work than what he can handle. Before all of this he was in a right state and was wondering what he could do with his life. Is this the kind of person you don’t want your taxes going towards?

That’s just three examples and I could come up with loads.

Now let’s look at this from a slightly different prospective. Mozart came from a broken family which were similar to the ones you probably resent today. Now let’s pretend that Mozart was born in the same circumstances today as he was born into back in the day. Let’s pretend he was born in Britain where the government is looking to cut benefits for Family’s that have more than two children. He would be absolutely doomed and when he grows up he’d probably be sent to stack shelves at the local supermarket for £0 an hour. But hey that’s ok because he comes from a broken family and they on benefits – too right they should work. What a great talent we would have lost.

Now I could give examples of numerous artists in Leeds that are going to waste because society has invested in them the wrong way. Not too long back I was on the verge of becoming a manager for a big artist in Leeds in order to help him progress with his acting career. I put his name out there to agents and there’s a good chance that as a result Emmerdale chose to film in one of his club nights. Ok it didn’t quite work out because I didn’t really have the best of resources and he wasn’t paying me to go out and get them. He tried to get me a job with one of his partners but that didn’t work out but we’re still sound with each other today.

However things are on the verge of working out very well indeed for me. Am I the kind of person you don’t want your taxes going towards?

Personally I’ve concluded that too many people have took me for granted (which we all do with anyone if they’ve been around for a while) and I’ve had to take my abilities elsewhere. I was on the verge of working with channel four until I had an argument with a simpleton jobs worth.

Watch this space and I highly recommend you channel your frustrations into something more constructive than those who are unemployed.