Re: Flooding in Tory voting areas ends the era of austerity : Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:26 pm  

There was an excellent documentary last night, which concluded that it was simply not viable to protect 100% of our coastline. Bleedin' obvious I would have thought, but it did also point out that throughout history, Mother Nature has the ability to surprise. This winter's storms being a prime example. I personally, am not convinced that using a very short 10 year window is proof positive as to a permanent change in our climate. And if people are going to get a tad upset about a spot of rising damp, then they can start by asking questions about the sensibility of this policy Or they could install some preventative measures themselves. I'd start by pointing the finger at that chubby lad from Hull......not Codhead, Prescott! And as money is no object, I look forward to the £180/200 million flood prevention scheme which was knocked back a few years ago, being implemented here in Leeds with all speed. There were many objections to the 2 metre high plastic walling from commercial interests, and those who had invested in riverside flats.Yes, I know that Planning permission has been granted for a much smaller, circa £50 million spend on the outskirts, and that at some time in the future a start will eventually be made on it. In the meantime, there are no flood defences for Leeds and a projected £500 million clean up bill if it does all go tits up.

There was an excellent documentary last night, which concluded that it was simply not viable to protect 100% of our coastline. Bleedin' obvious I would have thought, but it did also point out that throughout history, Mother Nature has the ability to surprise. This winter's storms being a prime example. I personally, am not convinced that using a very short 10 year window is proof positive as to a permanent change in our climate. And if people are going to get a tad upset about a spot of rising damp, then they can start by asking questions about the sensibility of this policy Or they could install some preventative measures themselves. I'd start by pointing the finger at that chubby lad from Hull......not Codhead, Prescott! And as money is no object, I look forward to the £180/200 million flood prevention scheme which was knocked back a few years ago, being implemented here in Leeds with all speed. There were many objections to the 2 metre high plastic walling from commercial interests, and those who had invested in riverside flats.Yes, I know that Planning permission has been granted for a much smaller, circa £50 million spend on the outskirts, and that at some time in the future a start will eventually be made on it. In the meantime, there are no flood defences for Leeds and a projected £500 million clean up bill if it does all go tits up.

Re: Flooding in Tory voting areas ends the era of austerity : Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:54 pm  

rumpelstiltskin wrote:

There was an excellent documentary last night, which concluded that it was simply not viable to protect 100% of our coastline. Bleedin' obvious I would have thought, but it did also point out that throughout history, Mother Nature has the ability to surprise. This winter's storms being a prime example.

If you mean Panorama, that was not "an excellent documentary". It was a short, superficial glance at the recent events with a few individual cases thrown in for effect.

I remember when Panorama WAS excellent.

Re: Flooding in Tory voting areas ends the era of austerity : Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:22 pm  

rumpelstiltskin wrote: There was an excellent documentary last night, which concluded that it was simply not viable to protect 100% of our coastline. Bleedin' obvious I would have thought, but it did also point out that throughout history, Mother Nature has the ability to surprise. This winter's storms being a prime example. I personally, am not convinced that using a very short 10 year window is proof positive as to a permanent change in our climate. And if people are going to get a tad upset about a spot of rising damp, then they can start by asking questions about the sensibility of this policy Or they could install some preventative measures themselves. I'd start by pointing the finger at that chubby lad from Hull......not Codhead, Prescott! And as money is no object, I look forward to the £180/200 million flood prevention scheme which was knocked back a few years ago, being implemented here in Leeds with all speed. There were many objections to the 2 metre high plastic walling from commercial interests, and those who had invested in riverside flats.Yes, I know that Planning permission has been granted for a much smaller, circa £50 million spend on the outskirts, and that at some time in the future a start will eventually be made on it. In the meantime, there are no flood defences for Leeds and a projected £500 million clean up bill if it does all go tits up. There was a projected map of the UK in 2100 on the internet recently, assuming rising sea levels due to global warming. Basically, alot smaller than now! Essentially Lancs and Yorks (save the Peninines) under the sea. Another reason why the RFL needs to encourage more expansion clubs.

rumpelstiltskin wrote: There was an excellent documentary last night, which concluded that it was simply not viable to protect 100% of our coastline. Bleedin' obvious I would have thought, but it did also point out that throughout history, Mother Nature has the ability to surprise. This winter's storms being a prime example. I personally, am not convinced that using a very short 10 year window is proof positive as to a permanent change in our climate. And if people are going to get a tad upset about a spot of rising damp, then they can start by asking questions about the sensibility of this policy Or they could install some preventative measures themselves. I'd start by pointing the finger at that chubby lad from Hull......not Codhead, Prescott! And as money is no object, I look forward to the £180/200 million flood prevention scheme which was knocked back a few years ago, being implemented here in Leeds with all speed. There were many objections to the 2 metre high plastic walling from commercial interests, and those who had invested in riverside flats.Yes, I know that Planning permission has been granted for a much smaller, circa £50 million spend on the outskirts, and that at some time in the future a start will eventually be made on it. In the meantime, there are no flood defences for Leeds and a projected £500 million clean up bill if it does all go tits up. There was a projected map of the UK in 2100 on the internet recently, assuming rising sea levels due to global warming. Basically, alot smaller than now! Essentially Lancs and Yorks (save the Peninines) under the sea. Another reason why the RFL needs to encourage more expansion clubs.

Re: Flooding in Tory voting areas ends the era of austerity : Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:36 pm  

Dally wrote:

There was a projected map of the UK in 2100 on the internet recently, assuming rising sea levels due to global warming. Basically, alot smaller than now! Essentially Lancs and Yorks (save the Peninines) under the sea. Another reason why the RFL needs to encourage more expansion clubs.

There's a cricket club perched on a hill as you go over on the M62, and I always used to smile at its location. Maybe they were just being prudent! Not too sure that 2100 will be a problem for any on here, but in any case, I have a narrowboat, so a bit of water can be seen as a plus!

Re: Flooding in Tory voting areas ends the era of austerity : Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:39 pm  

Mintball wrote:

My pleasure entirely.

However, such extreme events are becoming more regular – and this winter's tidal surges were so severe as to destroy or damage many defences.

The point remains: there has been and remains a political consensus on maintaining that situation – and improving it. We have had successive governments, irrespective of the work of their own scientists, routinely cutting spending or ignoring the need to improve defences, infrastructure etc, on the grounds of political expediency and nothing else.

Yes, I think they have. We've always had occasional freak weather, but what is happening now is that is becoming more regular – and not just more regular, but in more places at one time or over a short period of time.

We have, in effect, lost any sense of the seasons: we have no idea what's coming next or when – and this has increasingly been the case for several years.

I'd treat Monbiot with some care: most deforestation in the UK didn't happen recently, but in Medieval times. And on his argument that, if you look at the map and see the number of places that are called 'forest' but have no trees, he's historically inaccurate, since 'forest' also more generally meant 'hunting area', for instance.

There is an issue with current farming methods and compacted soil, but again, it's far from being the only issue.

As I said above, the frequency with which such events are occurring is increasing. And looking at many of the houses we see in pictures of flooded areas, these are not developments that have all been built in the last 20 years.

All this freak weather you talk about - is it really more common / more intense? We've not had a winter like 1963 since. We've had big coastal floods many times. The Thames used to freeze, etc, etc.

Weather and climate always fluctuates and always has done.

Monbiot was not saying upland trees have just been cut down but cited an example of some upland farmers planting trees, hedges, allowing localised flooding in order to increase their own returns which has a big knock on beneficial effect downstream. Poorly targeted EU subsidies mean they are encouraged to tear out any trees and hedges, according to him.
Our uplands would naturally be wooded but "we" seem to prefer them to look bare. Reafforestation would dramatically reduce river flooding downstream at a stroke.

Flooding is largely down to the obsession with using land for commercial purposes, tidying it up, etc. Reafforestation, allowing areas of natural water meadow, etc would solve most of the issues. As ever, political interference and a distorted "market" that gives subsidies to the wrong things and does not put a price on the natural environment cause these problems.

Re: Flooding in Tory voting areas ends the era of austerity : Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:23 pm  

Dally wrote:

All this freak weather you talk about - is it really more common / more intense? We've not had a winter like 1963 since. We've had big coastal floods many times. The Thames used to freeze, etc, etc...

Yet we had a 6-8 month winter last year. Nice and mild this time around for most of the UK – yet the wettest one on record and nobody seems sure when it's likely to end.

That's two successive and extreme winters.

We have had heavy flooding now in at least three of the last six years, IIRC. Not in one place, once, but across the UK, on a number of occasions and sometimes more than once in the same place.

Re: Flooding in Tory voting areas ends the era of austerity : Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:28 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Yet we had a 6-8 month winter last year. Nice and mild this time around for most of the UK – yet the wettest one on record and nobody seems sure when it's likely to end.

That's two successive and extreme winters.

We have had heavy flooding now in at least three of the last six years, IIRC. Not in one place, once, but across the UK, on a number of occasions and sometimes more than once in the same place.

Yes, but such events have happened thousands of times over the millenia. If you look at longer term fluctations we in the Northern Hemishpere have had numerous ice-ages and very warm inter-glacial periods. Our current climate is, arguably, unnnaturally mild as I would guess are the short-term fluctuations in weather patterns.

Re: Flooding in Tory voting areas ends the era of austerity : Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:58 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Yet we had a 6-8 month winter last year. Nice and mild this time around for most of the UK – yet the wettest one on record and nobody seems sure when it's likely to end.

That's two successive and extreme winters.

We have had heavy flooding now in at least three of the last six years, IIRC. Not in one place, once, but across the UK, on a number of occasions and sometimes more than once in the same place.

These so-called freak weather patterns have always occurred and humans have always reacted in the same way i.e. panicking that they were omens of an impending apocalypse caused by immoral human behaviour. In the past it was God's wrath caused by our lack of faith in religion and today it is global warming caused by our lack of faith in environmentalism.

Despite the work of Galilleo showing that the earth revolves around the sun, people continue to believe that the earth revolves around us. Everything that happens on this planet is down to us. People need to just accept that there are forces more powerful than us that are out of our control.

Re: Flooding in Tory voting areas ends the era of austerity : Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:08 pm  

David Titan wrote:

These so-called freak weather patterns have always occurred and humans have always reacted in the same way i.e. panicking that they were omens of an impending apocalypse caused by immoral human behaviour. In the past it was God's wrath caused by our lack of faith in religion and today it is global warming caused by our lack of faith in environmentalism.

Despite the work of Galilleo showing that the earth revolves around the sun, people continue to believe that the earth revolves around us. Everything that happens on this planet is down to us. People need to just accept that there are forces more powerful than us that are out of our control.

When you say people believe the Earth revolves around us, who are "us" - you and who? Where do you stand?

Re: Flooding in Tory voting areas ends the era of austerity : Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:54 am  

David Titan wrote:

These so-called freak weather patterns have always occurred and humans have always reacted in the same way i.e. panicking that they were omens of an impending apocalypse caused by immoral human behaviour. In the past it was God's wrath caused by our lack of faith in religion and today it is global warming caused by our lack of faith in environmentalism.

Despite the work of Galilleo showing that the earth revolves around the sun, people continue to believe that the earth revolves around us. Everything that happens on this planet is down to us. People need to just accept that there are forces more powerful than us that are out of our control.

Don't those two paragraphs directly contradict each other ?

"Its not us, its just nature"
"We are causing the nature"