Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:58 pm  

Well then let's examine the logical constructions that he used:

"Muslim friends" and "Jewish friends".

Totally down with this. Here are two groups of people with an identity with whom we have no quarrel at all that is any way related to that identity. These groupings are real, and equatable. Anyone can easily accept these concepts of identity based groupings as things that are very much alike.

I have been led by the construction of the logic in this argument to consider that we are now equating things that are, as with the above, very much alike.

So where do we go now? Israel and the Islamic State. The democratically elected government of Israel, and the Islamic State. Before we had two things that were very much alike, and now we have Israel and the Islamic State.

If you are not personally offended by this then cool. Personally I have the same problem with that attitude that I do with those Leave voters who backed a coalition of racists pushing a nationalist agenda saying that they are not personally racist. Yes they are, they looked in the face of xenophobia and fscking shrugged. If the real lives of real people are just collateral damage in your analysis of what you want and how you get it then you're a 2@.

It's not much of a conspiracy to say that when the narrative at that moment in time is on the complete lack of leadership of those who got us to this position, to turn it on yourself because of your spectacular tone deafness on these issues then you're not just not a leader, you're actively damaging to the interests. If you do it in the shadow of a recent smear campaign deigned to discredit you on exactly this issue then you're beyond stupid. Incalculably stupid. Dangerously stupid. The kind of well meaning stupid that shows exactly how you will be derailed from every last item on your agenda.

But he doesn't actually stop there.

No one should be expected either to condemn or defend the actions of foreign powers on account of their faith or race. At the same time, we should have the sensitivity to understand how upset many Labour party members and supporters are likely to feel about various human rights abuses around the world.

No, fsck you. There is no "at the same time". That first sentence is complete as it stands and needs no qualification at all. No one should be expected to do anything at all, at any time, to satisfy some artificial expectations placed on them because of their faith, race, nationality, gender identification or sexuality.

Do not condemn Jews, the most vilified group in human history, for the actions of a government. Excellent position to take. You do not follow this up with 'At the same time, don't be surprised if the Labour party membership start moaning about Jews and "Zionists" purely because of it'. This is an obscene false equivalence.

Seriously, how stupid is this person? The more I consider the actual words he used, and the constructions of logic that he used, the less charitable I am towards him.

edit: The word of the week is Verschlimmbesserung. Look it up.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:05 pm  

VBFG, I recommend you listen to Shami Chakrabati who chaired the inquiry discussing the findings and Corbyns position. http://www.lbc.co.uk/chakrabati-defends ... ism-133112 To summarise she pointed out the media manipulation of the story and the way the media have attacked Corbyn who instigated this inquiry, while at the same time ignored the blatant racism displayed by the Conservative and UKIP parties in recent times.

VBFG, I recommend you listen to Shami Chakrabati who chaired the inquiry discussing the findings and Corbyns position. http://www.lbc.co.uk/chakrabati-defends ... ism-133112 To summarise she pointed out the media manipulation of the story and the way the media have attacked Corbyn who instigated this inquiry, while at the same time ignored the blatant racism displayed by the Conservative and UKIP parties in recent times.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:34 pm  

It doesn't matter what her opinion is. I know damn well it's media manipulation. The point is that he's a rank amateur with no hope of ever controlling the narrative. He cannot lead. It was what, three weeks ago when to save face one of the most famous party members of all was being ejected. And he's making lazy comparisons like this. It's just stupid, and he's a liability.

If he wanted to not be a liability then the thing to do would have been to act with knowledge that the media does manipulate. I have yet to see much evidence that he's capable of it. Who, apart from Sideshow Bob, walks into exactly the self same trap over and over? Why would you even be going there at all when there are real, pragmatic and in everyone's faces issues of racial hatred going on right here and right now? You can't find an actual, relevant analogy from the practical issues of the surge of violence and intimidation following the vote? Then what's the point in you? Why are we abstract at all?

I'm very much not against a candidate from the left who can actually lead. Corbyn is not that person entirely on his own merits. This kind of crap is his leadership from now until the day it is over.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:04 pm  

It really is fun watching and reading the rubbish about Mr Corbyn. It's years since a politician has scared so many that what they say and write is anything that they hope will bring him down.
The faux labour politicians have shown themselves to be the Tory lite that they are and the media have tried to convince everyone that the man is dangerous by their actions. The trouble is they forget one key factor.
We live in interesting times and perhaps a change is in the wind. People are afraid of change, especially those who benefit from the status quo and they will say and do anything to ensure it stays that way.
Let the fun begin.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:25 am  

Yes mate. It's us v them. That's the spirit.

It's not about his beliefs. It's him.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:31 am  

I am amazed by the love for Cameron on here! He has been the most incompetent and embarrassing PM during my lifetime.

Angela Eagle is ridiculous, my a@@e has more charisma. Surely she would only ever be a name to get a leadership contest going and for one if the awful brigade then to actually get elected?

Labour has nobody credible and likeable to the public that I can think of. Corbyn is probably their best bet as at least people are getting used to him and there will be some respect for his willingness to be different. As I said before, Labour lost a great opportunity in not backing Brexit. If the PLP had followed Corbyn's principles rather than pushing their's on him they would be in a very strong position right now and could have legitimately argued for a General Election that they may have won. But they missed that opportunity and have probably destroyed themselves by once again showing that they are unrepresentative.

As to the voter disconnect of parliament generally, now could be a great opportunity for British politics. One that will not be taken.... why not all agree to PR and then let Labour and Conservatives splits occur? We could then have several parties who would be more representative of a divided nation's views and the centre ground would be secured via coalition. Seems the way to go from here to me.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:06 am  

Dally wrote:

I am amazed by the love for Cameron on here! He has been the most incompetent and embarrassing PM during my lifetime.

Angela Eagle is ridiculous, my a@@e has more charisma. Surely she would only ever be a name to get a leadership contest going did one if the awful brigade to actually get elected?

Labour has nobody credible and likeable to the public that I can think of. Corbyn us probably their best bet as at least people are getting used to him and there will be some respect for his willingness to be different. As I said before, Labour lost a great opportunity in not backing Brexit. If the PLP had followed Corbyn's principles rather than pushing their's on him they would be in a very strong position right now and could legitimately argue for a General Election that they may have won. But they missed that opportunity and have probably destroyed themselves by once again showing that they are unrepresentative.

As to the voter disconnect of parliament generally, now could be a great opportunity for British politics. One that will it be taken.... but why not all agree to PR and then let Labour and Conservatives splits occur? We could then have several parties who would be more representative of a divided nation's views and the centre ground would be secured via coalition. Seems the way to go from here to me.

Yep. If Corbyn's had backed the leave campaign labour would probably be in pole position to win the next election. He could've also moved attention away from the immigration argument, and made it more about the undemocratic, megalomaniac nature of the Eu.
Now we're left with fascists May, and Gove, or Angela Eagle, who described a report from the liberal Democrats in 2008, warning of a dangerous bubble in the housing market as "nonsensical".

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:14 am  

Labour are not a credible party of government for the simple reason they have not even been able to execute a simple coup to get rid of Corbyn. Michael Gove showed how to get rid of the Etonians!

If Labour's self-professed brightest and best (actually dull and useless) can't organise an internal coup how could they lead a divided country, with a strong opposition and deal with complex post-Brexit international affairs? Answer: they simply could not.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:38 pm  

Dally wrote:

Labour are not a credible party of government for the simple reason they have not even been able to execute a simple coup to get rid of Corbyn. Michael Gove showed how to get rid of the Etonians!

If Labour's self-professed brightest and best (actually dull and useless) can't organise an internal coup how could they lead a divided country, with a strong opposition and deal with complex post-Brexit international affairs? Answer: they simply could not.

I don't think that Gove can win the Tory leadership election. If May wins she will give him a low powered job while he desires one of the top jobs. If Leadsom wins (she's gaining popularity amongst Brexiters) she may give Gove a top job. At the moment I can't see Gove being one of the final two.

Re: Will Labour Ever Learn? : Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:08 am  

wigan_rlfc wrote:

I don't think that Gove can win the Tory leadership election. If May wins she will give him a low powered job while he desires one of the top jobs. If Leadsom wins (she's gaining popularity amongst Brexiters) she may give Gove a top job. At the moment I can't see Gove being one of the final two.

I was not expressing an opinion on whether Gove would be leader, simply that he did what a lot of the Tory party wanted.