Re: Brexit Referendum : Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:23 pm  

MGarbutt1986 wrote:

one word, bolloxs, but that is typical Socialism.

So you keep saying, without any real or meaningful rebuttal; hence why people call you thick - because you trot out dismissive one-liners, without engaging in any form of reasonable conversation.

Re: Brexit Referendum : Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:55 pm  

bren2k wrote:

So you keep saying, without any real or meaningful rebuttal; hence why people call you thick - because you trot out dismissive one-liners, without engaging in any form of reasonable conversation.

reasonable conversation with socialists? If I want to listen to empty wind, I eat beans and then trump later.

Re: Brexit Referendum : Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:21 pm  

bren2k wrote:

Then you're not doing it right - you've been harping on about Corbyn not campaigning for Remain for months, but someone has just provided you with a link to a speech, and a list of all the events he attended as part of the campaign.

I would suggest, as he did some time ago, that the MSM do not report on these things, then create the narrative that they never happened, and people who get their news from the MSM then believe that to be true; it's like magic!

Personally, I've been very clear from the outset - he considers the EU flawed, and wanted to Remain and Reform; which would actually have been a much better basis to address the undoubted issues with the EU, than a ridiculous binary tick box exercise, which allowed liars and ideologues to promise all sorts of things which were never actually possible.

Re: Brexit Referendum : Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:28 pm  

bren2k wrote:

Then you're not doing it right - you've been harping on about Corbyn not campaigning for Remain for months, but someone has just provided you with a link to a speech, and a list of all the events he attended as part of the campaign.

I would suggest, as he did some time ago, that the MSM do not report on these things, then create the narrative that they never happened, and people who get their news from the MSM then believe that to be true; it's like magic!

Personally, I've been very clear from the outset - he considers the EU flawed, and wanted to Remain and Reform; which would actually have been a much better basis to address the undoubted issues with the EU, than a ridiculous binary tick box exercise, which allowed liars and ideologues to promise all sorts of things which were never actually possible.

And in his speech (the one with the link) the guy goes as far as saying that he is "largely in favour" of the EU and doesn't suggest that we should remain.
Corbyn , like many others has been badly hedging his bets.
He's so far away from pinning his colours to either mast that he's got fecking splinters.

Again, I fully understand why he may wish to do this but, for me, this doesn't really help.
Even though I detest May with a passion at least you know that you have a reluctant remainer "in charge", even though she is totally inept.

Brexit has brought the very worst out of many of our politicians and it's little wonder that we saw such a pitiful turn out in the Newport by election (only 37%) but, at least UKIP only managed a couple of thousand votes. Every cloud ………………...

Re: Brexit Referendum : Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:50 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

And in his speech (the one with the link) the guy goes as far as saying that he is "largely in favour" of the EU and doesn't suggest that we should remain.
Corbyn , like many others has been badly hedging his bets.
He's so far away from pinning his colours to either mast that he's got fecking splinters.

Again, I fully understand why he may wish to do this but, for me, this doesn't really help.
Even though I detest May with a passion at least you know that you have a reluctant remainer "in charge", even though she is totally inept.

I can't see how you can criticise Corbyn for lack of commitment then praise May for the same thing.

Re: Brexit Referendum : Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:07 pm  

tigertot wrote:

I can't see how you can criticise Corbyn for lack of commitment then praise May for the same thing.

But that's the point, isn't it.
May didn't want to leave but she has tried to sort out a deal to do leave.
Corbyn has been a Eurosceptic over the years and has pretended that he wants to leave but, has NEVER fully committed himself either way, just in case there is a change of direction in the political wind.

May has made a total rubbish of arranging a deal but that doesn't mean that she personally has swayed with the wind. It just means that she is inept as a leader.

I dont think that May's commitment is in question, just her ability.

Corbyn's commitment on Europe IS still in doubt. Remember, Labour fought the last election on a "leave" card, as they didn't want to b seen to be going against the referendum result. Enough said.

Re: Brexit Referendum : Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:16 pm  

bren2k wrote:

Then you're not doing it right - you've been harping on about Corbyn not campaigning for Remain for months, but someone has just provided you with a link to a speech, and a list of all the events he attended as part of the campaign.

I would suggest, as he did some time ago, that the MSM do not report on these things, then create the narrative that they never happened, and people who get their news from the MSM then believe that to be true; it's like magic!

Personally, I've been very clear from the outset - he considers the EU flawed, and wanted to Remain and Reform; which would actually have been a much better basis to address the undoubted issues with the EU, than a ridiculous binary tick box exercise, which allowed liars and ideologues to promise all sorts of things which were never actually possible.

Sweet Jesus. When are you lot going to understand? THE EU WILL NOT REFORM. EVER. They've repeated it a million times, and they gave David Cameron nothing meaningful. Even when one of their biggest, most important members starts to leave, they refuse to reform. When their ideology is causing resentment, anger and a rise in the far right across Europe, they refuse to reform. When the Mediterranean economies are are their *rse and populations are flocking north for work, they refuse to reform. Their ideology is set in stone and the decision-makers are all devotees.

All this talk of 'remain and reform' is unicorn stuff (that seems to be the phrase of choice right now). Or in other words, utter bollox. It will not happen.

That's one of the main reasons I voted leave. If the EU had shown any sign of a willingness to reform, my vote would have changed. But no, their language hardened and became scathing, which made my decision even easier.

As for Corbyn - when he became Labour leader actually I respected him for not playing the politics game; for his straight-talking and honesty, even if I vehemently disagree with his ideology. That soon respect soon vanished. He's as evasive as any politician.

Let's just get a few things clear on Corbyn and the EU. He:
- Opposed membership of the EEC
- Voted 'No' in the 1975 referendum
- Opposed the Maastricht Treaty
- Opposed the Lisbon Treaty
- Supported an in/out referendum in 2011
- Has repeatedly been filmed enthusiastically denouncing the structure and ideology of the EU - all before he became Labour leader and started the strategy games of course.
- Has been suspiciously non-committal throughout Brexit, until his Labour strategists dictated the best approach to bring about a disastrous Brexit, and thus bring down the government and force a General Election. That's what they're doing, in case you're not aware. Throwing us all to the wall for a shot at No.10.

Socialists can't agree on the EU. Some love it, some loath it, some tolerate it. I'm not sure Corbyn is bothered either way.

Re: Brexit Referendum : Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:38 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Sweet Jesus. When are you lot going to understand? THE EU WILL NOT REFORM. EVER. They've repeated it a million times, and they gave David Cameron nothing meaningful. Even when one of their biggest, most important members starts to leave, they refuse to reform. When their ideology is causing resentment, anger and a rise in the far right across Europe, they refuse to reform. When the Mediterranean economies are are their *rse and populations are flocking north for work, they refuse to reform. Their ideology is set in stone and the decision-makers are all devotees.

All this talk of 'remain and reform' is unicorn stuff (that seems to be the phrase of choice right now). Or in other words, utter bollox. It will not happen.

That's one of the main reasons I voted leave. If the EU had shown any sign of a willingness to reform, my vote would have changed. But no, their language hardened and became scathing, which made my decision even easier.

As for Corbyn - when he became Labour leader actually I respected him for not playing the politics game; for his straight-talking and honesty, even if I vehemently disagree with his ideology. That soon respect soon vanished. He's as evasive as any politician.

Let's just get a few things clear on Corbyn and the EU. He:
- Opposed membership of the EEC
- Voted 'No' in the 1975 referendum
- Opposed the Maastricht Treaty
- Opposed the Lisbon Treaty
- Supported an in/out referendum in 2011
- Has repeatedly been filmed enthusiastically denouncing the structure and ideology of the EU - all before he became Labour leader and started the strategy games of course.
- Has been suspiciously non-committal throughout Brexit, until his Labour strategists dictated the best approach to bring about a disastrous Brexit, and thus bring down the government and force a General Election. That's what they're doing, in case you're not aware. Throwing us all to the wall for a shot at No.10.

Socialists can't agree on the EU. Some love it, some loath it, some tolerate it. I'm not sure Corbyn is bothered either way.

Thats just about spot on

Re: Brexit Referendum : Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:02 am  

So the farce continues until October, atthe behest of the EU, we are never going to leave with May as PM, despote what people voted for. As much as I wanted to remain, I see more clearly that our MP's and the EU don't give a flying fig about the general public.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Referendum : Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:30 pm  

MGarbutt1986 wrote:

So the farce continues until October, atthe behest of the EU, we are never going to leave with May as PM, despote what people voted for. As much as I wanted to remain, I see more clearly that our MP's and the EU don't give a flying fig about the general public.

In the case of MPs they are trying to do what they think is best, considering/balancing the democratic imperative to leave against protecting/promoting what they each regard as the country’s best interests. Even the ones I disagree with profoundly are doing what they sincerely regard as best.

The issue is that there was never a single clear vision for it, allowing people to project onto it what they wanted. That was great for Leave but hugely problematic for leaving, because it is still happening and the different visions are really, really difficult to reconcile and everybody thinks their version is the one true or best Brexit. And that’s before we get to the 48% who weren’t impressed in the first place, and the fact we have a hung parliament.

As for the EU... are we still looking to them to take care of our figs and stuff? What does them giving a fig look like in these circumstances? Are you suggesting they should have hastened our departure, despite our request for a delay?

We’re in a strange place where there is no democratic dividend to doing anything, only recriminations from those who’ll feel betrayed. So we’re trapped in this Kafkaesque political purgatory. And it is completely of our own making. We have boxed ourselves in absolutely brilliantly. If it was a ‘what if?’ fiction, it’d feel far fetched, but here we are. Still.