Re: new conflict in middle east ? : Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:12 pm  

King Street Cat wrote:

No, but only if you have a choice. You wouldn't know what you were getting eating out.

yes, you would. But I guess a tinfoil helmet makes it difficult. How do you get WiFi in a Faraday cage?

Re: new conflict in middle east ? : Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:46 pm  

Mild Rover wrote: Chlorination isn’t harmful, it is the need for it that is the concern. Rates of food poisoning following consumption of chicken are higher in the US (about tenfold iirc). As long as clear labelling is mandatory, I agree we’re not obliged to eat it. Be interesting to see whether UK farmers are allowed to adopt the same practices to compete. Surely that would be more down to how the chicken is cooked? I'm guessing none of us cook chicken as we might red meat, i.e. slightly undercooked in the middle, nice red juices etc. No, we'd stick it in the oven at about 180C, or in a hot pan until cooked through. Chicken can be juicy and be cooked if done correctly. My understanding is that in fact most chicken sold in the UK already contains campylobacter and other nasties, but that when cooking over a temperature of something like 70C for a few minutes about 99.99999% of bacteria are killed. Other little tips such as not washing chicken under a tap to prevent splashing drops of raw juices, and washing your hands thoroughly after handling raw chicken help. Full Fact casts some doubt on your quoted figures: https://fullfact.org/health/food-poisoning-US-UK/ A more interesting debate would be on how the UK/EU and US sell eggs. Here we don't allow the eggs to be washed to help protect the cuticle, which is an amazing natural protection for the egg. Hence we sometimes find feathers on our eggs. Prohibiting washing also encourages excellent hygiene on the farms: the fact is, no-one will buy dirty eggs. In the US the FDA insist on all eggs being washing and sanitised to rigorous standards, which are fairly easy to let slip. I believe some eggs are then sealed in wax. That's why US eggs are always refrigerated, while in the UK they are not. And our eggs are MUCH tastier.

Mild Rover wrote: Chlorination isn’t harmful, it is the need for it that is the concern. Rates of food poisoning following consumption of chicken are higher in the US (about tenfold iirc). As long as clear labelling is mandatory, I agree we’re not obliged to eat it. Be interesting to see whether UK farmers are allowed to adopt the same practices to compete. Surely that would be more down to how the chicken is cooked? I'm guessing none of us cook chicken as we might red meat, i.e. slightly undercooked in the middle, nice red juices etc. No, we'd stick it in the oven at about 180C, or in a hot pan until cooked through. Chicken can be juicy and be cooked if done correctly. My understanding is that in fact most chicken sold in the UK already contains campylobacter and other nasties, but that when cooking over a temperature of something like 70C for a few minutes about 99.99999% of bacteria are killed. Other little tips such as not washing chicken under a tap to prevent splashing drops of raw juices, and washing your hands thoroughly after handling raw chicken help. Full Fact casts some doubt on your quoted figures: https://fullfact.org/health/food-poisoning-US-UK/ A more interesting debate would be on how the UK/EU and US sell eggs. Here we don't allow the eggs to be washed to help protect the cuticle, which is an amazing natural protection for the egg. Hence we sometimes find feathers on our eggs. Prohibiting washing also encourages excellent hygiene on the farms: the fact is, no-one will buy dirty eggs. In the US the FDA insist on all eggs being washing and sanitised to rigorous standards, which are fairly easy to let slip. I believe some eggs are then sealed in wax. That's why US eggs are always refrigerated, while in the UK they are not. And our eggs are MUCH tastier.

[Mild Rover]

Re: new conflict in middle east ? : Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:59 am  

Cronus wrote: Surely that would be more down to how the chicken is cooked? I'm guessing none of us cook chicken as we might red meat, i.e. slightly undercooked in the middle, nice red juices etc. No, we'd stick it in the oven at about 180C, or in a hot pan until cooked through. Chicken can be juicy and be cooked if done correctly. My understanding is that in fact most chicken sold in the UK already contains campylobacter and other nasties, but that when cooking over a temperature of something like 70C for a few minutes about 99.99999% of bacteria are killed. Other little tips such as not washing chicken under a tap to prevent splashing drops of raw juices, and washing your hands thoroughly after handling raw chicken help. Full Fact casts some doubt on your quoted figures: https://fullfact.org/health/food-poisoning-US-UK/ A more interesting debate would be on how the UK/EU and US sell eggs. Here we don't allow the eggs to be washed to help protect the cuticle, which is an amazing natural protection for the egg. Hence we sometimes find feathers on our eggs. Prohibiting washing also encourages excellent hygiene on the farms: the fact is, no-one will buy dirty eggs. In the US the FDA insist on all eggs being washing and sanitised to rigorous standards, which are fairly easy to let slip. I believe some eggs are then sealed in wax. That's why US eggs are always refrigerated, while in the UK they are not. And our eggs are MUCH tastier. I guess it is a numbers game, and the bacterial load is higher in US chickens increasing the risk. In fairness, it may be increasing the risk from very, very, very low to very, very low. I only remember seeing a fold difference and by itself that doesn’t give any idea about the scale of the issue. If it is 50 to 500 per year, that’d be very different to 5000 to 50,000. Blooming heck, it is 300,000 currently in the UK across campylobacter from all food sources, according to the NHS. We need a public education program, I think. Edit, that is only 1 in about 200 people per year so much less than 1 event per typical lifetime - I didn’t think it through. Still, you wouldn’t want it going up to 3 million, and I assume it is only reported cases. I wonder if one of the things that divides typical enthusiastic brexiteers and typical resigned former remainers is how they see the UK fitting into the world. I probably identify a little bit more with Europe (as opposed to the EU), more than the Anglosphere. Would the opposite be true for you?

Cronus wrote: Surely that would be more down to how the chicken is cooked? I'm guessing none of us cook chicken as we might red meat, i.e. slightly undercooked in the middle, nice red juices etc. No, we'd stick it in the oven at about 180C, or in a hot pan until cooked through. Chicken can be juicy and be cooked if done correctly. My understanding is that in fact most chicken sold in the UK already contains campylobacter and other nasties, but that when cooking over a temperature of something like 70C for a few minutes about 99.99999% of bacteria are killed. Other little tips such as not washing chicken under a tap to prevent splashing drops of raw juices, and washing your hands thoroughly after handling raw chicken help. Full Fact casts some doubt on your quoted figures: https://fullfact.org/health/food-poisoning-US-UK/ A more interesting debate would be on how the UK/EU and US sell eggs. Here we don't allow the eggs to be washed to help protect the cuticle, which is an amazing natural protection for the egg. Hence we sometimes find feathers on our eggs. Prohibiting washing also encourages excellent hygiene on the farms: the fact is, no-one will buy dirty eggs. In the US the FDA insist on all eggs being washing and sanitised to rigorous standards, which are fairly easy to let slip. I believe some eggs are then sealed in wax. That's why US eggs are always refrigerated, while in the UK they are not. And our eggs are MUCH tastier. I guess it is a numbers game, and the bacterial load is higher in US chickens increasing the risk. In fairness, it may be increasing the risk from very, very, very low to very, very low. I only remember seeing a fold difference and by itself that doesn’t give any idea about the scale of the issue. If it is 50 to 500 per year, that’d be very different to 5000 to 50,000. Blooming heck, it is 300,000 currently in the UK across campylobacter from all food sources, according to the NHS. We need a public education program, I think. Edit, that is only 1 in about 200 people per year so much less than 1 event per typical lifetime - I didn’t think it through. Still, you wouldn’t want it going up to 3 million, and I assume it is only reported cases. I wonder if one of the things that divides typical enthusiastic brexiteers and typical resigned former remainers is how they see the UK fitting into the world. I probably identify a little bit more with Europe (as opposed to the EU), more than the Anglosphere. Would the opposite be true for you?

Re: new conflict in middle east ? : Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:50 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Is there an evidence that it is harmful to humans? Will we be forced to eat it?

Loads of evidence that chlorine is highly dangerous to humans.

Reckon the only people who would be forced to eat it though, would be the children of whoever is the minister responsible for assuring us good people that it's safe to eat.

What I would say though, my experience of food hygiene standards across the USA, is that they are extremely high, even to the point of excessiveness. I wouldn't have any qualms whatsoever, eating 'murican chicken.

Re: new conflict in middle east ? : Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:17 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

I guess it is a numbers game, and the bacterial load is higher in US chickens increasing the risk. In fairness, it may be increasing the risk from very, very, very low to very, very low. I only remember seeing a fold difference and by itself that doesn’t give any idea about the scale of the issue. If it is 50 to 500 per year, that’d be very different to 5000 to 50,000.

Blooming heck, it is 300,000 currently in the UK across campylobacter from all food sources, according to the NHS. We need a public education program, I think. Edit, that is only 1 in about 200 people per year so much less than 1 event per typical lifetime - I didn’t think it through. Still, you wouldn’t want it going up to 3 million, and I assume it is only reported cases.

I wonder if one of the things that divides typical enthusiastic brexiteers and typical resigned former remainers is how they see the UK fitting into the world. I probably identify a little bit more with Europe (as opposed to the EU), more than the Anglosphere. Would the opposite be true for you?

Why wouldn't I identify with Europe? You even make a differentiation between Europe and the EU - we are aligned on that viewpoint.

To quote our PM, I love Europe. I lived there for several years and remember every second of it fondly. I then worked for a German company for several years which entailed travelling there (or Switzerland or Austria or Sweden or Belgium) every few weeks. Give me Spanish, Greek, Italian (and Turkish) food any day of the week. I'm even 1/4 Sicilian (the other quarters being English, Irish and Scottish).

I don't want to be governed by the EU, simple as that. I disagree with it's long-term ambitions and some of it's 'pillars', upon which unfortunately it refuses to even consider reform.

At the same time I hold a great fondness for the US - I've worked for US companies for much of my life and again that entailed regular travel all over the States. I will say I prefer travelling to Europe as I enjoy Mediterranean culture, traditions and cuisine far more than the US, and once you've done the touristy parts of the USA and visited quite a few cities there isn't much to drag me back, though I do hope to take my daughter to NYC one day, and I'd love a west coast road trip at some point before I join the great gig in the sky.

I see the UK being the UK. I see us holding close ties with Europe and the US concurrently - as we have for we over a century. Will it be a perfect world? No. Has it ever been? No.

[Mild Rover]

Re: new conflict in middle east ? : Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:33 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Why wouldn't I identify with Europe? You even make a differentiation between Europe and the EU - we are aligned on that viewpoint.

To quote our PM, I love Europe. I lived there for several years and remember every second of it fondly. I then worked for a German company for several years which entailed travelling there (or Switzerland or Austria or Sweden or Belgium) every few weeks. Give me Spanish, Greek, Italian (and Turkish) food any day of the week. I'm even 1/4 Sicilian (the other quarters being English, Irish and Scottish).

I don't want to be governed by the EU, simple as that. I disagree with it's long-term ambitions and some of it's 'pillars', upon which unfortunately it refuses to even consider reform.

At the same time I hold a great fondness for the US - I've worked for US companies for much of my life and again that entailed regular travel all over the States. I will say I prefer travelling to Europe as I enjoy Mediterranean culture, traditions and cuisine far more than the US, and once you've done the touristy parts of the USA and visited quite a few cities there isn't much to drag me back, though I do hope to take my daughter to NYC one day, and I'd love a west coast road trip at some point before I join the great gig in the sky.

I see the UK being the UK. I see us holding close ties with Europe and the US concurrently - as we have for we over a century. Will it be a perfect world? No. Has it ever been? No.

There’s no specific reason why you wouldn’t identify with Europe and i’m sorry if you feel that i’m trying to make you representative of Brexitdom as a whole, which obviously no one person is.

While relationships with the EU and the US aren’t either-or (although there are clearly tensions), I’m curious as to why Brexit sceptics are going a bit ‘bendy bananas’ over chlorinated chicken. On the other side Brexit enthusiasts don’t seem to reach for the sovereignty, independence, anti-rule taker arguments that the UK could refuse to accept chlorinated chicken from the US, but instead for it maybe not being as bad as people imagine. If it had been a proposed new innovation from the EU in the middle of the decade, I’m pretty confident the Leave campaign would have leveraged the poop out of it.

On the Anglosphere thing, I think occasional mention of a potential trade deal with New Zealand always struck me as a bit odd. It couldn’t be much further away, and it is a small market. Every little helps, of course, but it seemed to get disproportionate attention.