Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:47 am  

Anyone remember forward passes, momentum and pillows?

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:53 am  

Mintball wrote:

Anyone remember forward passes, momentum and pillows?

Are they anything like bread cakes?

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:01 am  

cod'ead wrote:

Are they anything like bread cakes?

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:11 am  

Jose, please read and digest the posts I have already made, and make some attempt to understand what I am saying.
I say that because you are making points that are already answered.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

So as you admit one of them is meaningless, why not just accept that they are both meaningless?

Oh, please.
I do accept that.
Not only do I accept that but it is the whole point .... if you read my earlier points you will see that is the main thrust of the argument.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

12 hours after midday is MIDNIGHT. It is the start of a new day. Why push for that 1 second to be 12pm when everyone else is fine with just putting 12am?

Because it follows 11:59:59 pm.
Midnight is a tiny infinitessimal instant, it is the "B" in bang, the new day begins after it.
Then one second after that instant is 12:00:01am.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

It isn't. It is significantly more dumb for the midnight and midday to be seperate from the rest of the hours starting 12.

More dumb than to want to continue the series of 7pm, 8pm, 9pm, 10pm, 11pm with 12 am?

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

Yes. The precise moment of midnight makes sense as 12pm because it's 12 hours after midday. BUT IT'S ALSO 12 HOURS BEFORE MIDDAY TOO.

Yes, and that is the reason why am and pm are not applicable to it.
Now we can either arbitrarily assign am and pm to the two boundary events of midnight and noon or we can see if there is any claim for either of them to be am or pm.

Noon cannot be said to be post or ante meridiem (on this I think we are agreed).
The fleeting instant of midnight can sensibly be said to be post meridiem (if only because, after an event, everything that follows, however small, is after it), it cannot be said to be part of the ante-meridiem because, by definition, it isn't.

So, if you must insist on using am and pm to label these events (disappointing though it is for me to use am or pm for them), then midnight has to be the pm ... and because midnight is pm, then noon cannot be pm.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

But 1 second after midnight is am. Arguing that one second of 1200 hours is am and one second of 0000 is pm is stupid and very few people apart from you are this daft.

This is the point where I doubt you will ever grasp the issue.
That one second (as you put it, and which is way too long, it is an infinitely small instant, before which is pm and after which is am) must mark the boundary between pm and am.
This is not like rugby league where you are in touch if you step on the edge of the line ... because here the line is so infinitely small it has no edges.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

Agreed. But it doesn't make sense as am either because it is the meridiem. For one ****ing second.

The best option is not to use am or pm for either of them ... but, if people will insist on using am and pm for those two instants, only midnight has any claim at all to actually being post meridiem.
Which leaves am as the label for 12 noon.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

What is truly dumb is your refusal to accept everyone else's acceptence of noon as 12pm and midnight as 12am.

It is not "everyone else's acceptance".
I don't accept that the earth is flat either.

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:30 am  

El Barbudo wrote:

Jose, please read and digest the posts I have already made, and make some attempt to understand what I am saying.
I say that because you are making points that are already answered.

Straight back at you.

I've never given a moments thought about this before this thread. YOU are the one who started it with your mocking tone towards the person who gave you the appointment of 12pm.

I simply replied that 12pm was noon.

Then it started.

Oh, please.
I do accept that.
Not only do I accept that but it is the whole point .... if you read my earlier points you will see that is the main thrust of the argument.

So why bother making the argument?

Because it follows 11:59:59 pm.
Midnight is a tiny infinitessimal instant, it is the "B" in bang, the new day begins after it.
Then one second after that instant is 12:00:01am.

You are arguing midnight belongs to yesterday, a second after midnight belongs to today.

More dumb than to want to continue the series of 7pm, 8pm, 9pm, 10pm, 11pm with 12 am?

Yes, by a million more miles more dumb.

On a 24 hour clock it's 0000. You want that precise moment to belong to yesterday on the 12 hour system, the second afterwards to belong to today.

The fleeting instant of midnight can sensibly be said to be post meridiem (if only because, after an event, everything that follows, however small, is after it), it cannot be said to be part of the ante-meridiem because, by definition, it isn't.

1200 (midnight) is the start of the new day. The start of the new day is obviously before the midday. That is why am makes perfect sense for midnight.

So, if you must insist on using am and pm to label these events (disappointing though it is for me to use am or pm for them), then midnight has to be the pm ... and because midnight is pm, then noon cannot be pm.

I don't insist. I've never even thought about it before this thread. You are the one who is arguing against what everyone else accepts.

It is not "everyone else's acceptance".

I did a quick search. (I'm in a couple of rewards schemes and get paid to search so I often search a lot of things that aren't initially interesting enough to think about). One of the websites was an answer site. I clicked on it. Everyone said midnight was am. Some went into a bit of detail. Don't think that anyone argued otherwise.

I looked at wikipedia. There was a section on confusion between am and pm. I quoted it, but didn't attribute it.

Can you point me to someone else who insists midnight is 12pm please.

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:32 am  

Mintball wrote:

Anyone remember forward passes, momentum and pillows?

Do you think that midnight is 12pm?

Do you write midnight as 12pm?

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:39 am  

There is probably an academic term to describe this illness.

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:52 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

There is probably an academic term to describe this illness.

Midnight - 12am or 12pm?

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:34 am  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

...I've never given a moments thought about this before this thread. YOU are the one who started it with your mocking tone towards the person who gave you the appointment of 12pm.

Quite ... and I stated that I was going to turn up when?
At noon, that's when.

And I correctly guessed who would start to argue a point that was unproveable.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

...You are arguing midnight belongs to yesterday, a second after midnight belongs to today...

In exactly the same terms as your argument that midnight is the start of the day, I could argue that that midnight is just as feasibly the end of the day and that it is therefore pm.
Neither would be correct.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

...On a 24 hour clock it's 0000. You want that precise moment to belong to yesterday on the 12 hour system, the second afterwards to belong to today.

I don't "want" that at all, that precise moment is the boundary with no duration and is not am or pm.
What I do want is for people who still use the 12 hour system to also use the correct terms noon and midnight.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

...1200 (midnight) is the start of the new day...

Wrong, it is in neither day.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

...The start of the new day is obviously before the midday...

... and begins at the immediate instant after midnight.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

... That is why am makes perfect sense for midnight.

No, there is no "perfect sense" for midnight being am (or pm, for that matter).

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

...Can you point me to someone else who insists midnight is 12pm please.

Come now, no genuinely authoritative source is going to say that 12am or 12 pm is correct, for the simple reason that they don't exist.
Your argument cannot be proven, except as some sort of worthless poll of illogical conventions.

Anyway, it is now well into the afternoon and I'm going for something to eat.

Re: Privatisation of NHS hospitals begins : Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:49 am  

El Barbudo wrote: Come now, no genuinely authoritative source is going to say that 12am or 12 pm is correct, for the simple reason that they don't exist. Your argument cannot be proven, except as some sort of worthless poll of illogical conventions. Anyway, it is now well into the afternoon and I'm going for something to eat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock Look at the section titles: Confusion at noon and midnight. Look at the table to the right of that article: Time as denoted by various devices or styles What does: Written 12-hour time(most common forms) say?

El Barbudo wrote: Come now, no genuinely authoritative source is going to say that 12am or 12 pm is correct, for the simple reason that they don't exist. Your argument cannot be proven, except as some sort of worthless poll of illogical conventions. Anyway, it is now well into the afternoon and I'm going for something to eat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock Look at the section titles: Confusion at noon and midnight. Look at the table to the right of that article: Time as denoted by various devices or styles What does: Written 12-hour time(most common forms) say?