Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:25 pm  

Israel has little future for the following reasons:

1. Poorer countries are getting richer. Israel is surrounded by larger, more populus countries that will get richer at some point. They will then be able to afford equivalent weapons and Israel will reap the backlash to its aggressive defensive strategy.

2. Its great protector, the US, will soon have little interest in the region and therefore Israel. I say that because the US is scheduled to become self-sufficient in energy in the next few years and indeed a net exporter. It will therefore have no real strategic interest in the Middle East and it will be China who will need the oil and so be the big power fiddling about in the region. So, unless Israel can convince China that it is their interests to look after it then it's finished. Incidentally, this shift will stuff the UK who seems to be exposed with its complete lack of energy policy. Currently it tags along with the USA to secure supplies. When the USA is no longer interested in the Middle East that will leave us even more exposed.

Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:24 pm  

Dally wrote:

Israel has little future for the following reasons:

1. Poorer countries are getting richer. Israel is surrounded by larger, more populus countries that will get richer at some point. They will then be able to afford equivalent weapons and Israel will reap the backlash to its aggressive defensive strategy.

2. Its great protector, the US, will soon have little interest in the region and therefore Israel. I say that because the US is scheduled to become self-sufficient in energy in the next few years and indeed a net exporter. It will therefore have no real strategic interest in the Middle East and it will be China who will need the oil and so be the big power fiddling about in the region. So, unless Israel can convince China that it is their interests to look after it then it's finished. Incidentally, this shift will stuff the UK who seems to be exposed with its complete lack of energy policy. Currently it tags along with the USA to secure supplies. When the USA is no longer interested in the Middle East that will leave us even more exposed.

Agree to a point with no.1, totally disagree with no.2. If the US were worried about oil supplies then it would make more sense not to back Israel instead of antagonising oil exporting Arab countries. If your unlikely scenario of US energy self-sufficiency were to come true anytime soon then it actually makes it easier for the US to back Israel, not harder.

Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:00 pm  

Him wrote:

If your unlikely scenario of US energy self-sufficiency were to come true anytime soon then it actually makes it easier for the US to back Israel, not harder.

My scenario is not unlikely. It's based on an industry report reported in the press within the last week or so. In my opinion, support for Israel is primarily about keeping the region reasnoably stable. In fact, taking my hypothesis further the US in future may be more interested in destabilising the region in order to undermine Chinese interests in the region.

Re: Lest we forget : Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:22 pm  

Dally wrote:

My scenario is not unlikely. It's based on an industry report reported in the press within the last week or so. In my opinion, support for Israel is primarily about keeping the region reasnoably stable. In fact, taking my hypothesis further the US in future may be more interested in destabilising the region in order to undermine Chinese interests in the region.

The report by the IEA states that if targets of increased efficiency in cars are met, that US energy demand should fall and might be nearly energy self-sufficient by 2035.
The US car sector are notoriously bad for fuel efficiency and unlikely to meet the targets.
I believe your hypothesis is flawed. As I said, if the US wanted to guarantee oil supplies they could more easily do so by backing Palestine instead of Israel. I think the US backing of Israel has sod all to do with oil and far more to do with the Jewish lobby in the US.

[Kosh]

Re: Lest we forget : Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:34 am  

Durham Giant wrote:

And there we have it.

If you were a pacifist or were arguing that from a religious point of view i could understand and credit your moral position.

But you are nothing but a political coward. Wanting to sit on the fence and stay in with everyone after all. What better position than to say it is terrible for both sides and give peace a chance.

So you equate the violence of the oppressor with the violence of the oppressed. Nothing but a political coward. That is why i side with the Palestinians and in a conflict i will support them because they are the oppressed, they are the victims and they need and deserve our support.

Sometimes you have to take sides. Sometimes you cannot equate both sides with the same moral position. Sometimes you have to fight for what you believe in and put your head above the parapet.

What an utter load of tripe. Are you some spotty teenager or something? Jeebus wept - I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[Durham Giant]

Re: Lest we forget : Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:56 am  

Kosh wrote:

What an utter load of tripe. Are you some spotty teenager or something? Jeebus wept - I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

so you cannot argue with it just make insults. Go on sit on the fence and say isnt it all a tragedy whilst the Israelis continue their land grab of Palestinian land and impose a collective punishment on the Palestinians in Gaza.


Thank fook we did not have to rely on people like you in WW2

Re: Lest we forget : Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:29 am  

Durham Giant wrote:

And there we have it.

If you were a pacifist or were arguing that from a religious point of view i could understand and credit your moral position.

But you are nothing but a political coward. Wanting to sit on the fence and stay in with everyone after all. What better position than to say it is terrible for both sides and give peace a chance.

So you equate the violence of the oppressor with the violence of the oppressed. Nothing but a political coward. That is why i side with the Palestinians and in a conflict i will support them because they are the oppressed, they are the victims and they need and deserve our support.

Sometimes you have to take sides. Sometimes you cannot equate both sides with the same moral position. Sometimes you have to fight for what you believe in and put your head above the parapet.

If you can't understand that fault doesnt alway lie with only one side, if you can't fathom that it is possible for both sides to be wrong, and both sides to be right, if you cant see that such an entrenched standpoint forces a violent conclusion then you are an idiot. I would rather be a political coward, able to see both sides of an argument, than an arrogant, violent, bully, so sure of their righteousness that they can't see anything but their own viewpoint.

I was never a keyboard warrior the scars on my body and the stab wounds suggest i got off the fence and fought for what i believed in.

It is possible, that what you believed in was wrong, it is possible that the belief you were fighting for was wrong. It is perfectly possible that the ideology you were trying to force on someone else, was wrong. It is perfectly possible, that from someone elses point of view, you were the violent aggressor.

[Durham Giant]

Re: Lest we forget : Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:52 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

If you can't understand that fault doesnt alway lie with only one side, if you can't fathom that it is possible for both sides to be wrong, and both sides to be right, if you cant see that such an entrenched standpoint forces a violent conclusion then you are an idiot. I would rather be a political coward, able to see both sides of an argument, than an arrogant, violent, bully, so sure of their righteousness that they can't see anything but their own viewpoint.

There is and has to be violent conclusion because ONE side has refused to negotiate and compromise for the last 70 years. Look at the map posted by Codead on page 2 of this thread for the facts.

The Palestinians feel they have NO option, even if they lose. They have nothing really left to lose. Maybe the last ones do not want to wait until they are loaded on to the cattle trucks and deported to Lebanon and Jordan and Egypt. Maybe they want to go out with a fight.

In these circumstances seeing both sides and sitting on the fence is just allowing the Isreali's to get away with it.

You have to take a side or you are a political coward.

I would love to have seen you in the Warsaw ghetto or the Warsaw uprising saying, " now i can see both sides but should we not just stop the fighting because the civilians are getting caught up in it".


Go on you just sit there wringing your hands and shaking your head whilst the Palestinians get shafted again.

[Kosh]

Re: Lest we forget : Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:59 pm  

Durham Giant wrote:

so you cannot argue with it just make insults. Go on sit on the fence and say isnt it all a tragedy whilst the Israelis continue their land grab of Palestinian land and impose a collective punishment on the Palestinians in Gaza.


Thank fook we did not have to rely on people like you in WW2

I can't argue with someone like you who appears to live in a fantasy world and is incapable of rational thought on this topic.

Re: Lest we forget : Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:32 pm  

Durham Giant wrote:

There is and has to be violent conclusion because ONE side has refused to negotiate and compromise for the last 70 years. Look at the map posted by Codead on page 2 of this thread for the facts.

The Palestinians feel they have NO option, even if they lose. They have nothing really left to lose. Maybe the last ones do not want to wait until they are loaded on to the cattle trucks and deported to Lebanon and Jordan and Egypt. Maybe they want to go out with a fight.

In these circumstances seeing both sides and sitting on the fence is just allowing the Isreali's to get away with it.

You have to take a side or you are a political coward.

I would love to have seen you in the Warsaw ghetto or the Warsaw uprising saying, " now i can see both sides but should we not just stop the fighting because the civilians are getting caught up in it".


Go on you just sit there wringing your hands and shaking your head whilst the Palestinians get shafted again.

You do realise this isnt batman movie dont you? You may 6 years old and still think the world can be divided into goodies and baddies. Im not. I feel for you that you see the acceptance of nuance or the complexity of such an issue as cowardice, it must be horrible to live in a world so binary.