[Bullseye]

Re: Are Labour facing political oblivion : Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:08 pm  

The non Trot element of Labour voters will either hold their collective noses and continue to vote Labour or simply stay at home. Either way with Corbyn as leader the party is doomed to be in perpetual opposition since it needs all its supporters behind it and a proportion of Tories to swing back as per 1997 to get back into power.

The only way that will happen will be with a charismatic new leader who can land some blows on the Tories and get some voters back from them. That won’t happen until after 2020. Labour will need to go through another 1983 and subsequent re-birth. A bit like the Tories in 1997-20010.

There is a need for a coherent opposition and the longer the Tories stay in power the better chance there is of that happening as the pendulum does tend to swing back as Governments become complacent after long periods of unchallenged power. In the meantime the Tories will clean up and UKIP will decline back into the swivel eyed borderline BNP territory as its raison detre has been realised.

Re: Are Labour facing political oblivion : Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:33 pm  

Bullseye wrote:

The non Trot element of Labour voters will either hold their collective noses and continue to vote Labour or simply stay at home. Either way with Corbyn as leader the party is doomed to be in perpetual opposition since it needs all its supporters behind it and a proportion of Tories to swing back as per 1997 to get back into power.

The only way that will happen will be with a charismatic new leader who can land some blows on the Tories and get some voters back from them. That won’t happen until after 2020. Labour will need to go through another 1983 and subsequent re-birth. A bit like the Tories in 1997-20010.

There is a need for a coherent opposition and the longer the Tories stay in power the better chance there is of that happening as the pendulum does tend to swing back as Governments become complacent after long periods of unchallenged power. In the meantime the Tories will clean up and UKIP will decline back into the swivel eyed borderline BNP territory as its raison detre has been realised.

Couldn't agree more.
The main concern in this scenario is that the Tories will end up with a huge majority at the next election, which will be a massive blow to the poorer paid and those in need.
The Tory ideal is to shrink the welfare state and allow people to keep a larger share of their earnings, which is great if you are well off but, not so good, if you fall on hard times.
Teresa May, talks about helping those in need and yet they (The Tories) are looking at abolishing PIP payments for disabled people and those with mental health issues.
Nobody should be in any doubt what their intentions are and whilst there will always be claimants of benefits who "dont need them", this is the second time in recent years that they have targeted those most in need of help.
It makes my blood boil and Corbyn is allowing them to get away with it, he should hang his head in shame and open his eyes to what is going on.
He needs to stop pretending that he is doing ok and that people are joining his "revolution" and realise that his support base, although very loyal and vocal, is never going to be big enough to do anything meaningful.

Re: Are Labour facing political oblivion : Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:31 am  

Talk of Labour being perpetual opposition is misguided. They seem wholly incapable of acting as an opposition. There is such a paucity of credible people in the PLP, of creativity, of intellectual ability and coherence it is simply shocking. They have no hope until they get people who can frame a coherent, sensible and credible policy agenda. This government could be torn to shreds and wholly undermined if they could think beyond the outdated, tired old scripts. Times are right for an eloquent leader with fire in his belly. The trouble is the majority of Labour MPs are PC clones who have no concept of fighting to build something rather than just petty sniping. They are an utter disgrace.

Re: Are Labour facing political oblivion : Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:33 am  

The last credible Labour leader was Tony Blair; can we just forget all that illegal war stuff and have him back?

Re: Are Labour facing political oblivion : Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:24 am  

bren2k wrote:

The last credible Labour leader was Tony Blair; can we just forget all that illegal war stuff and have him back?

And it all came from being too pally with a blood thirsty, war mongering US leader ??

Re: Are Labour facing political oblivion : Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:54 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

And it all came from being too pally with a blood thirsty, war mongering US leader ??

Exactly. Take that away and he was a half decent leader.

[Bullseye]

Re: Are Labour facing political oblivion : Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:03 pm  

Needs someone who can appeal to more than just a bunch of Trots that’s for sure. Blair crossed over hugely, albeit with the help of the Murdoch press. Corbyn’s too hopeless to get the support of the Mirror and Guardian.

Not sure if we’ve even heard of the leader who will turn the ship around. Kinnock did a lot of the heavy lifting after the shambles of 1983. Smith made Labour electable. Blair got them into power. It’s going to need a similar job this time. Current names that spring to mind aren’t up to it (Jarvis – bit of an empty vessel), Harman (tainted by association with past failure), Ummuna (lacks passion and apparently not interested).

One wonders if they’d be in this mess had David Milliband been elected leader rather than his brother. I suspect not. He certainly wouldn’t have changed the membership rules so the rent-a-trot mob could effectively take over.

Re: Are Labour facing political oblivion : Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:52 pm  

Bullseye wrote:

Needs someone who can appeal to more than just a bunch of Trots that’s for sure. Blair crossed over hugely, albeit with the help of the Murdoch press. Corbyn’s too hopeless to get the support of the Mirror and Guardian.

He did indeed - he was able to advocate a form of socialism, without coming across like an overgrown student who has never quite escaped the idealism of the refectory. I'm a lifelong Labour supporter - but like many people, I found my socialist leanings tempered with age and experience and possibly self interest; Blair got that completely, and made Labour policies palatable and acceptable to a broad cross section of society - including the Murdoch media, as someone else has pointed out.

The current Labour leadership is an embarrassing joke; the Tories are ripe for being ripped to shreds right now, but their worst excesses continue unchecked, because the opposition is too busy chewing its own leg off. I've no doubt that Corbyn will step aside at some point soon - but it will take years for the Labour Party to recover to anything like an effective political force.

Re: Are Labour facing political oblivion : Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:33 pm  

bren2k wrote:

He did indeed - he was able to advocate a form of socialism, without coming across like an overgrown student who has never quite escaped the idealism of the refectory. I'm a lifelong Labour supporter - but like many people, I found my socialist leanings tempered with age and experience and possibly self interest; Blair got that completely, and made Labour policies palatable and acceptable to a broad cross section of society - including the Murdoch media, as someone else has pointed out.

The current Labour leadership is an embarrassing joke; the Tories are ripe for being ripped to shreds right now, but their worst excesses continue unchecked, because the opposition is too busy chewing its own leg off. I've no doubt that Corbyn will step aside at some point soon - but it will take years for the Labour Party to recover to anything like an effective political force.

The main thing that Blair realised was that, your ideas and policy's are worthless, unless you are in power.
Unfortunately, Corbyn is too much of an idealist to realise this and too stubborn to adjust his policies to make them appeal to anyone outside his group of ultra left wing buddies.
Michael Foot was similar bur, even he got closer to number 10 than Corbyn ever will.
He (Corbyn) is a bright bloke but, cant/ doesnt want to change and whilst Labour may be closer to his personal ideal, whilst he is at the helm, the party is screwed.

Re: Are Labour facing political oblivion : Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:55 pm  

UKIP tearing itself apart will help labour, I can see carswell going back to the conservatives after the abuse heaped on him by farrage. If brexit does not work out as planned (I suspect it won't ) then boris Johnson and gove will be jostling to take the prime ministers job.
So the spotlight will be on the conservatives for a change. Our cousins north of the border will insist on a new referendum, coupled with the antics of trump will make for a rocky few years. So the outcome for the Labour Party may change for the better .We live in interesting times. I should rephrase that for extremely dangerous times.