[Mild Rover]

Re: Man of the People : Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:49 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

Yes Johnson basically did for both Cameron and May.

But also Corbyn must have a private chuckle at the way the terms of debate have shifted since he's been Labour leader.

Just think back in 2015 when Corbyn came in if you could have a crystal ball and said this is what the government will be doing in 2020:

- Raising the minimum wage by 6.2% despite business groups condemning it as a crazy rise in the current unstable economic climate

- Promising to use taxpayers' money to subsidise ailing manufacturing industries

- Talking about a huge swathe of public investment to reinvigorate the north

- Stripping Northern Rail of their franchise and putting the government on standby to take the line back into public ownership

- Using price-capping in energy markets

....what would the Tories have been saying? They would have seen this as the kind of apocalyptic vision of what a Corbyn-led government would inflict on the UK and destroy the economy.

Now I bet Sal Paradise will be able to make a good argument in favour of each one of those. In 2015....not so sure. He'll have been on an ideological journey like the rest of the Tories and ended up in some spaces that Corbyn has occupied for a long time.

What's really been killed off dramatically in a short space of time, by both Johnson and Corbyn, is the 'Cameron agenda' of small-state, free-market austerity-focused economics mixed with Blairite social liberalism. Given Cameron wasn't going to run again in 2020, I think 2019 was supposed to be the year he handed over to his heir Osborne to carry the torch in to the 2020s.

It is an interesting thought that Corbyn has shifted the Overton window.

Perhaps we’ll end up with a fourth way of leftist economic policy and social conservatism. There’s a Godwin’s Law trigger!

I’m unsure which way Johnson will jump as we partially emerge from the political morass of Brexit. To be fair, I imagine he is too. Will it be a Cummings-inspired agenda (challenging because it is radical), will he lean towards the tooth and claw Thatcherite deregulatory capitalism and conservatism of the ERG, Raab and Patel (would require a lot of media lube), or will he try to be more of a traditional Tory Patrician ‘Brexity Heseltine’ PM (despite his cull of what would then be his natural parliamentary base)?

Re: Man of the People : Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:00 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

It is an interesting thought that Corbyn has shifted the Overton window.

Perhaps we’ll end up with a fourth way of leftist economic policy and social conservatism. There’s a Godwin’s Law trigger!

I’m unsure which way Johnson will jump as we partially emerge from the political morass of Brexit. To be fair, I imagine he is too. Will it be a Cummings-inspired agenda (challenging because it is radical), will he lean towards the tooth and claw Thatcherite deregulatory capitalism and conservatism of the ERG, Raab and Patel (would require a lot of media lube), or will he try to be more of a traditional Tory Patrician ‘Brexity Heseltine’ PM (despite his cull of what would then be his natural parliamentary base)?

Corbyn has definitely shifted the dial - the idea that it is everyman for himself is dead - I wouldn't be surprised to see a rise in income tax and a lowering of VAT before the end of this Tory government. This way the poor really benefit, they will be out of the tax system and the goods they buy will be cheaper - win win wealth redistribution

[Mild Rover]

Re: Man of the People : Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:06 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I think the confidence that some Oxbridge graduates have is seen by some as arrogance - Boris is anything but arrogant - arrogant to me are people like Ash Sakar/Grace Blakely/Tony Blair/Alistair Campbell who think they know better than the rest of us. It is a problem with the educated left - they have non-jobs and they try and ram down your throat their superiority. Boris is nothing like that. There is something about these young Oxbridge types that riles you - only you know what that is?

The SAS metaphor applies to Oxbridge graduates i.e. they are the elite of the elite - these two universities are seen by many as amongst the finest educational institutions in the world - they attract the very best. We might mock but the truth is they turn out a high percentage of well educated, well rounded and very talented individuals with a confidence that goes with it.

You do know that Blair and Campbell went to Oxford and Cambridge, respectively? Blakely went to Oxford, as well.

What saddens me about ‘young’ Oxbridge types like Johnson and Cameron, who are both about a decade older than me, is that they’ve somehow convinced people like you that they are better than you.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Man of the People : Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:08 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Corbyn has definitely shifted the dial - the idea that it is everyman for himself is dead - I wouldn't be surprised to see a rise in income tax and a lowering of VAT before the end of this Tory government. This way the poor really benefit, they will be out of the tax system and the goods they buy will be cheaper - win win wealth redistribution

Every so often we agree.

Re: Man of the People : Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:40 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

You do know that Blair and Campbell went to Oxford and Cambridge, respectively? Blakely went to Oxford, as well.

What saddens me about ‘young’ Oxbridge types like Johnson and Cameron, who are both about a decade older than me, is that they’ve somehow convinced people like you that they are better than you.

Nope, they never said it, how is LORD Prescott, Mrs and Mrs Kinnock, cuckoo Scargill, Paddy Pantsdown?

you hail them, and they where no different.

When it comes to politics, you bring a water balloon to a gun fight.

Re: Man of the People : Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:04 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised to see a rise in income tax and a lowering of VAT before the end of this Tory government. This way the poor really benefit, they will be out of the tax system and the goods they buy will be cheaper - win win wealth redistribution

Completely against the thinking of the Thatcher-Howe-Lawson reforms of the 1980s. They believed that 'pay as you spend' was more fair than 'pay as you earn'. Those who work hard should keep more of their income; those who consume more should be the ones who pay more.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Man of the People : Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:43 pm  

IR80 wrote:

Nope, they never said it, how is LORD Prescott, Mrs and Mrs Kinnock, cuckoo Scargill, Paddy Pantsdown?

you hail them, and they where no different.

When it comes to politics, you bring a water balloon to a gun fight.

Have you quoted the wrong post? Because, otherwise, i think you have brought a jar of ashphalt to a fondue party.

Who never said what?

For the hailing, do you mean me individually, or entities like me of whom you see me as being representative? Y’know i’m a bot sent back in time by an in silico construct of Greta Thunberg’s consciousness, yeah?

Re: Man of the People : Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:25 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

Have you quoted the wrong post? Because, otherwise, i think you have brought a jar of ashphalt to a fondue party.

Who never said what?

For the hailing, do you mean me individually, or entities like me of whom you see me as being representative? Y’know i’m a bot sent back in time by an in silico construct of Greta Thunberg’s consciousness, yeah?

wow, you have taken 84t541t lunacy to a new level.

Re: Man of the People : Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:31 pm  

meamwhile I am sure Jeremy has an invite to pay his condolansces...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50986185

meamwhile I am sure Jeremy has an invite to pay his condolansces...https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50986185

[Mild Rover]

Re: Man of the People : Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:43 pm  

IR80 wrote:

wow, you have taken 84t541t lunacy to a new level.

You started it!