Re: State Funeral for Thatcher : Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:07 pm  

cod'ead wrote: sanjunien wrote: couldn't you finish off the job in real style with a burial at sea from the fishing boat à la 'Captain Bob' ? What sea laps against the Mount of Olives in Israel? only cos' some dipstick found his body.....get yer tides right & Bobs' your uncle !

cod'ead wrote: sanjunien wrote: couldn't you finish off the job in real style with a burial at sea from the fishing boat à la 'Captain Bob' ? What sea laps against the Mount of Olives in Israel? only cos' some dipstick found his body.....get yer tides right & Bobs' your uncle !

Re: State Funeral for Thatcher : Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:22 pm  

[quote="Mintball"][

I can't remember specific manifesto pledges on this, but never forget that any opinion is, in part, informed by a UK media that is, in the majority, hostile to trades unions.

I think the 'winter of discontent' was the deciding factor plus the miners strike years earlier - the general public or the public in general were fed up with the perceived power of the unions more specifically the power weilded by Scargill Robinson et al.


The French people should thank their lucky stars. It's possibly been one reason that France has not gone down the neo-liberal path to the extent that the US and UK have. And why you do not have quite the same economic divide as those two, with all the social problems that that brings.

It may also reflect the fact that France has a better press than over here: even the conservative media will, in the event of a major strike, say, actually look at the facts behind the dispute and sometimes even sympathise.

Incidentally, there is lower union density in France than in the UK.


quite right - the unions have helped get things done and my particular union (CFTC) is seen as a mild version of the heavyweights (CGT & CFDT etc) but we still have our voice and try to do our bit to not allow the government to get away with murder
It's a different kind of press over here - the 'red tops' aren't really present as a daily organ as most of that stuff is put into satirical weeklies - the big news is found in the 'serious' press where you usually find a more balanced view of politics within the Hexagon & beyond
regarding union participation,I have no idea of the figures involved -the avaerage french citizen isn't particularly militant as the minority of union big wigs do the dirty work for the majority who can't be bothered

Re: State Funeral for Thatcher : Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:26 pm  

They should put a statue of her on top of Everest, like the statue of liberty,so she can be seen from space, her magnificence radiating out into the cosmos.

Re: State Funeral for Thatcher : Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:39 pm  

World of Redboy wrote:

They should put a statue of her on top of Everest, like the statue of liberty,so she can be seen from space, her magnificence radiating out into the cosmos.

Why bother with a mere statue??....Send the old witch up now, while still breathing, and let her really suffer in her final days.

At the end, she'd be frozen solid so the statue wouldn't really be needed???...

Re: State Funeral for Thatcher : Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:56 pm  

How about terraforming planet earth into the likeness of her face, a la mount Rushmore, that's a even better tribute to her goddessness.

Re: State Funeral for Thatcher : Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:16 pm  

Mintball wrote:

The French people should thank their lucky stars. It's possibly been one reason that France has not gone down the neo-liberal path to the extent that the US and UK have. And why you do not have quite the same economic divide as those two, with all the social problems that that brings.

It may also reflect the fact that France has a better press than over here: even the conservative media will, in the event of a major strike, say, actually look at the facts behind the dispute and sometimes even sympathise.

Incidentally, there is lower union density in France than in the UK.

I would say there is a bigger economic divide in France. France has had unemployment levels on par with the worst of the Thatcher era through most of the last two decades. It's the flip side of having a heavily unionised society with a high level of employment legislation ("a price worth paying" as Norman Lamont might say!), in France if you have a job you're OK but if you don't especially if you are young, you can be shut outside the employment market for years or for a lifetime.

And that brings a lot of social problems with it - look at Jean Marie Le Pen making the Presidential run off a decade ago and Marine Le Pen having a fair chance of doing that next year. They are exploiting the frustration of a large proportion of the French population that is unemployed and socially excluded, by giving them enemies to blame, black Africans, north African arabs, eastern Europeans.

Re: State Funeral for Thatcher : Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:57 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

Mintball wrote:

The French people should thank their lucky stars. It's possibly been one reason that France has not gone down the neo-liberal path to the extent that the US and UK have. And why you do not have quite the same economic divide as those two, with all the social problems that that brings.

It may also reflect the fact that France has a better press than over here: even the conservative media will, in the event of a major strike, say, actually look at the facts behind the dispute and sometimes even sympathise.

Incidentally, there is lower union density in France than in the UK.

I would say there is a bigger economic divide in France. France has had unemployment levels on par with the worst of the Thatcher era through most of the last two decades. It's the flip side of having a heavily unionised society with a high level of employment legislation ("a price worth paying" as Norman Lamont might say!), in France if you have a job you're OK but if you don't especially if you are young, you can be shut outside the employment market for years or for a lifetime.

And that brings a lot of social problems with it - look at Jean Marie Le Pen making the Presidential run off a decade ago and Marine Le Pen having a fair chance of doing that next year. They are exploiting the frustration of a large proportion of the French population that is unemployed and socially excluded, by giving them enemies to blame, black Africans, north African arabs, eastern Europeans.

agree with most of that tho' many of the unemployment problems have been due to governments of all persuasions being totally inflexible regarding the employment laws ie.making the employers charges so high as to discourage the taking on of staff and encouraging illegal working practices and trying various 'schemes' for employers to take on youngsters with various 'work experience' initiatives which is basically cheap labour - when te two year contract is up the company just takes on more work experience kids therefore denying jobs for the older unemployed.The last couple of years has seen Sarko bring in legislation to make it easier and cheaper to become self-employed leaning towards the uk based system.This has helped but in times of recession people are afraid to take the risk of becoming self employed and opting to stay on the dole.

There is frustration with the north african arabs,mainly algerians who are perceived as lazy skivers who are a drain on the system (many of whom have been in france and are original immigrants or second generation who still can't be bothered to learn french,let alone look for work).Eastern europeans are seen as a big problem along with other europeans including brits,dutch & germans etc (we've been here before !) working 'on the black' etc.I personally haven't found any great opposition to the black africans who are more enterprising and seen as 'acceptable ' to the majority of white french people IMO

Re: State Funeral for Thatcher : Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:58 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

I would say there is a bigger economic divide in France..

Not according to The Spirit Level.

sally cinnamon wrote:

France has had unemployment levels on par with the worst of the Thatcher era through most of the last two decades. It's the flip side of having a heavily unionised society with a high level of employment legislation ("a price worth paying" as Norman Lamont might say!), in France if you have a job you're OK but if you don't especially if you are young, you can be shut outside the employment market for years or for a lifetime...

See previous comment. And unions and working rights are not the reason for high unemployment.

sally cinnamon wrote:

And that brings a lot of social problems with it - look at Jean Marie Le Pen making the Presidential run off a decade ago and Marine Le Pen having a fair chance of doing that next year. They are exploiting the frustration of a large proportion of the French population that is unemployed and socially excluded, by giving them enemies to blame, black Africans, north African arabs, eastern Europeans.

That France has lower levels of a wide range of social problems than the UK (see The Spirit Level again) is not to say that it is Utopia or that there are not problems and those who will exploit them.

Re: State Funeral for Thatcher : Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:08 pm  

sanjunien wrote:

agree with most of that tho' many of the unemployment problems have been due to governments of all persuasions being totally inflexible regarding the employment laws ie.making the employers charges so high as to discourage the taking on of staff ...

A while ago, on here, I asked someone (sal paradise, IIRC) to provide just one actual example of how legislation on unfair dismissal had stopped an employer form taking on a new members of staff. Unless I missed it, there was no response from him – or anyone else.

sanjunien wrote:

... and encouraging illegal working practices and trying various 'schemes' for employers to take on youngsters with various 'work experience' initiatives which is basically cheap labour - when te two year contract is up the company just takes on more work experience kids therefore denying jobs for the older unemployed...

We had a thread about this in the UK just recently.

sanjunien wrote:

... The last couple of years has seen Sarko bring in legislation to make it easier and cheaper to become self-employed leaning towards the uk based system.This has helped but in times of recession people are afraid to take the risk of becoming self employed and opting to stay on the dole...

Sarko is a neo-liberal t**t, who is apparently too thick to see what has happened as a result of nei-liberal policies elsewhere or simply doesn't give one about the people he is supposed to represent.

Why is becoming self-employed supposed to be so good? And what are all the jobs that did not allow for self-employment but do now? I've been self-employed for a decade now – because I had pretty much no option. It's not some bed of roses and can be an absolute financial nightmare. Why promote something that will lead to less security for many? How is this beneficial to society?

Re: State Funeral for Thatcher : Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:31 pm  

Mintball wrote:

A while ago, on here, I asked someone (sal paradise, IIRC) to provide just one actual example of how legislation on unfair dismissal had stopped an employer form taking on a new members of staff. Unless I missed it, there was no response from him – or anyone else.

Ah but did you ask him about unfair dismissal in the real world or in this fake world the rest of us apparently inhabit?