Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:38 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

We must be back to snobbery then!



Seriously, can you say in musical terms why Don't Cry For Me Argentina is inferior to, say, You'll Never Walk Alone? Or how Music Of The Night is poorer than Younger Than Springtime?

I think that Don't Cry For Me Argentina is one of the best things that LW has written. I think it stands up against a great many songs by a great many other composers. I think it has complexity musically and is good lyrically. It's probably fair to say it's now a 'standard' and be can sung on its own and even in stylistically different ways. Given all that, it's probably fair to say that it's on a par with You'll Never Walk Alone.

But then I have never said that LW has never written a decent song. However, my initial point remains: there's a top song there – but where are the other songs, from the same show, that are even close in quality and memorability?

A good popular show has to be more than one song. Okay, one song might become more famous than any other, but you need more than one good song in that show.

Which takes us back to Les Mis: a very lengthy show (as I remember it), with three memorable songs (at a pinch) and a lot of the rest that sort of blurs together.

Two pars back, I mentioned "popular" – and it was for a reason. I haven't invoked Stephen Sondheim in this discussion until now precisely because I was sticking with 'popular', as opposed to Sondheim's oeuvre, which has largely* not been aimed at the widest, most 'popular' audience, and does other things.

If you're going to write a show where you're not producing a series of striking, memorable numbers, then there has to be something else. With Sondheim, it's things like more philosophically-inclined plots and music that is also more complex. In A Little Night Music, for instance, the entire show is written in waltz time to echo the period in which it's set. It's never boring though, as Sondheim has the ability to create enormous variety within the limits he's set himself.

His lyrics can be remarkable too – sometimes, his rhyming could leave even WS Gilbert in the shade.

When Sondheim does thru-sung, he's good enough to make it work (he doesn't use it all the time, anyway).

But as I said, Sondheim is not a popular composer in the usual understanding of what that means.

But for a really good popular composer of musicals, there has to be more than one good (or even great) song per show.

As for Music Of The Night – I think it's overblown wannabe-opera tosh.

And if you're going to carry that off successfully, you need to be Freddie Mercury and Montserrat Caballé.




* Follies and A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum are the exceptions, I think: the former because it's a pastiche/homage to an earlier period of popular shows and the latter, because it's a pretty broad comedy (a sort of a musical Up Pompeii).

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:41 pm  

McLaren_Field wrote:

Nah, I'd let them live simply for letting Sinatra record "This nearly was mine" from South Pacific, a wonderfully under-played, subdued, recording in which music and vocal are seemingly sung to different tempos but merge together sublimely - have a listen on Spotify, but pick Sinatra/Nelson Riddle's version.

Cheers, enjoyed that.

Perhaps just a little mild torture for Sound of Music then.

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:53 pm  

Mintball wrote:

:twisted:

I think that Don't Cry For Me Argentina is one of the best things that LW has written. I think it stands up against a great many songs by a great many other composers. I think it has complexity musically and is good lyrically. It's probably fair to say it's now a 'standard' and be can sung on its own and even in stylistically different ways. Given all that, it's probably fair to say that it's on a par with You'll Never Walk Alone.

But then I have never said that LW has never written a decent song. However, my initial point remains: there's a top song there – but where are the other songs, from the same show, that are even close in quality and memorability?

On This Night Of A Thousand Stars and Another Suitcase In Another Hall are both reasonably close, I'd say.

Mintball wrote:

A good popular show has to be more than one song. Okay, one song might become more famous than any other, but you need more than one good song in that show.


But for a really good popular composer of musicals, there has to be more than one good (or even great) song per show.

But I think a lot of his shows do have a number of 'good' songs in them. Certainly as many as other composers in the same genre. And most shows only have one 'great' number in them. Taking Joseph (it's the one I know best) as an example, it might not have loads of songs that have become standards in their own right, but I think all the songs work well in the context of the production and none are unpleasant to listen to. Surely the job of a composer in musical theatre is to compose songs that work well in the show first and foremost. Anything else is a bonus.

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:17 pm  

OK Minty, just to save me the trouble, cos I can't be bothered and this is your bag anyway...........
Since this seems to be key to what makes someone great in an objective way, what do the 'experts' say about Lloyd Webber?

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:22 pm  

Stand-Offish wrote:

OK Minty, just to save me the trouble, cos I can't be bothered and this is your bag anyway...........
Since this seems to be key to what makes someone great in an objective way, what do the 'experts' say about Lloyd Webber?

To borrow from Wikipedia:

"Lloyd Webber has been accused of plagiarism in his works. His biographer, John Snelson, has acknowledged the strong similarity between the opening melody of the slow movement of Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto and the Jesus Christ Superstar song "I Don't Know How to Love Him", but opines that Webber: "...brings a new dramatic tension to Mendelssohn's original melody through the confused emotions of Mary Magdalene. The opening theme may be Mendelssohn, but the rhythmic and harmonic treatment along with new lines of highly effective melodic development are Lloyd Webber's. The song works in its own right as its many performers and audiences can witness."[20]

In interviews promoting Amused to Death, Roger Waters, formerly of Pink Floyd, claimed that Lloyd Webber had plagiarised short chromatic riffs from the 1971 song "Echoes" for sections of The Phantom of the Opera, released in 1986; nevertheless, he decided not to file a lawsuit regarding the matter.

The songwriter Ray Repp made a similar claim about the same song, but insisted that Lloyd Webber stole the idea from him. Unlike Roger Waters, Ray Repp did decide to file a lawsuit, but the court eventually ruled in Lloyd Webber's favour.

Rick Wakeman, on his Grumpy Old Rockstar tour of 2008, accused Lloyd Webber of borrowing the main riff for the Phantom of the Opera tune from a section of his 1977 work "Judas Iscariot" from the album Criminal Record.

Lloyd Webber has also been accused of plagiarising Puccini, most notably in Requiem and The Phantom of the Opera. In the Program Guide for the San Francisco Opera's performance (2009–2010 season) of Puccini's Girl of the Golden West, on page 42, it states: "The climactic phrase in Dick Johnson'a aria, "Quello che taceta," bears a strong resemblance to a similar phrase in the Phantom's song, "Music of the Night," in Lloyd Webber's 1986 musical The Phantom of the Opera.

Following the musical's success, the Puccini estate filed suit against Lloyd Webber accusing him of plagiarism and the suit was settled out of court.

Lloyd Webber has also been accused of plagiarism by Dutch composer Louis Andriessen, who described him as "yet to think up a single note; in fact, the poor guy's never invented one note by himself."

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:30 pm  

A bit dense but interesting.

A bit dense but interesting.

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:32 pm  

Mintball wrote:

snip

A nice balanced response.

To borrow from his own site and Wiki:
1 Oscar (Best Original Song) + 2 nominations
1 Golden Globe (Best Original Song) + 1 nomination
7 Tony awards
7 Laurence Olivier awards
3 Grammy awards
14 Ivor Novello awards
The Triple Play award from the American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers
American Songwriters’ Hall of Fame
Praemium Imperiale award for music 1995
Richard Rodgers award for Excellence in Musical Theatre 1996
London Critics’ Circle Award for Best Musical 2000 (I'm assuming Minty didn't vote for him)
2 International Emmy Awards
Knighted in 1992 for services to the theatre throughout the world.
Early in 1998, Andrew was honoured with Variety’s first British Entertainment Personality Of The Year Award.
Star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame for live theatre (1993)
Kennedy Centre Honors 2006
Woodrow Wilson Award for Public Service 2008
1988 Drama Desk Award for Outstanding Orchestrations for The Phantom of the Opera

Cats, together with Starlight Express and Jesus Christ Superstar, gave Andrew the three longest-running musicals in British theatre history. Andrew is also the first person to have a trio of musicals running in London and New York.

Many of those awards are voted for and decided on by experts in the same field. Not bad for a non-credible plagiarist.

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:34 pm  

Cronus wrote:

:lol: A nice balanced response.

I thought that too. It's almost as if Minty just picked the bit that supported her view!

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:39 pm  

Cronus wrote:

... London Critics’ Circle Award for Best Musical 2000 (I'm assuming Minty didn't vote for him)
2 International Emmy Awards...

Nope. Although I used to be a member.

Cronus wrote:

.... Not bad for a non-credible plagiarist.

Well he's settled 'out of court' for such accusations of plagiarism ...

Re: Eurovision 2012 - Engelbert Humperdinck for UK : Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:37 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Nope. Although I used to be a member.

Actually, I was thing about this and realised that the date of that award was shortly after I had resigned form the organisation in question, since I'd moved to a job that did not involve reviewing.

And look what happened ...