Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:39 pm  

JerryChicken wrote:

... My old man was well involved in the Leeds & West Yorks Working Mens Clubs, he was an amatuer entertainer himself and also a secretary at his club so he knew a lot of the "club turns" of the 1970s.

Even the most successful of those usually had a "day job", the most expensive "turns" were usually the comedians and you'd book them up to 18 months in advance because they were so popular and because most clubs would only employ them for a Saturday or Sunday night - the most popular would easily do 104 gigs a year and didn't have to leave South and West Yorks in order to do so...

Absolutely spot on.

JerryChicken wrote:

What would kill their act, and they knew it, was a TV appearance for as soon as you appeared on TV your act was blown and your next weeks bookings wouldn't want to see your TV routine again, on the other hand you could go back to the same club in 12 months time and do exactly the same routine and they'd think you were fantastic...

Which is exactly why Ken Dodd has done very little TV throughout his incredibly long career. But if you watch him do a couple (or more) successive shows live, you see how he's always got different routines available and how he 'tests' an audience in the opening moments of a show before deciding which route to go for the rest of the evening – and that's a lot of material, particularly given his legendarily long performances.

It is awesome to witness.

JerryChicken wrote:

... Bottom line Damo - its not harder, its always been hard, you're just starting to realise though.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:55 pm  

JerryChicken wrote:

I know you were laughing when you wrote that but I'll give you a nugget of information.

I am not laughing because this was a serious point I was putting across and I always thought nuggets were those crispy coated things that you get from McDonalds

The most successful comedians of today can perform in bigger venues on any day of the week compared to their one gig a week predecessors. Alongside doing traditional comedy gigs, comedians today star in films that are showcased in cinemas throughout the country, do their own sitcoms, release hit singles which include music videos, have their own columns in major newspapers and appear on comedy panel shows. There's a good number of comedians doing this today and I'm sure the talent beneath them is nearly as good.A lot of this wasn't available as much for the stars back in your day so it'll be an unfair comparison. It's like comparing this current Leeds Rhinos team to the best ones of the past - totally different eras and circumstances for them to be compared fairly.

I agree with all the points you've made with regards to singers.

Also agree with your final point..

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:54 pm  

Absolutely, films, big venues, TV shows and sitcoms, stuff like that. It's a pity none of this stuff was ever available to the old timers like, oh, I don't know, Bob Hope, Woody Allen, Bob Monkhouse, Jerry Seinfeld, Benny Hill, Tommy Cooper, Steve Martin, Frankie Howerd, Richard Pryor, Peter Sellers, Peter Cook, George Carlin, Jasper Carrott, Tony Hancock, George Burns, Rowan Atkinson, Jackie Mason, Les Dawson, Bill Hicks, Spike Milligan, Eddie Murphy, Eric Sykes, Dave Allen, Bill Cosby . . .

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:53 pm  

Damo-Leeds wrote:

The most successful comedians of today can perform in bigger venues on any day of the week compared to their one gig a week predecessors. Alongside doing traditional comedy gigs, comedians today star in films that are showcased in cinemas throughout the country, do their own sitcoms, release hit singles which include music videos, have their own columns in major newspapers and appear on comedy panel shows. There's a good number of comedians doing this today and I'm sure the talent beneath them is nearly as good.A lot of this wasn't available as much for the stars back in your day so it'll be an unfair comparison. It's like comparing this current Leeds Rhinos team to the best ones of the past - totally different eras and circumstances for them to be compared fairly.

Yes but we've moved away from the original point, the examples above are the pinnacle of comedic talent, the ones who got lucky, and if you want to compare them to the generation from the 1970s that I am comparing with then I would pick any of the stars of "The Comedians" or the likes of Freddie Starr, etc etc all of whom would book a 50 or 60 show summer season and then fill a winter up with selected theatre gigs - same old thing, same old routine...

What I was comparing you to is the jobbing comedians, singers and other entertainers who would perform in working mens clubs once or twice a weekend to supplement a day job (quite lucrative too), some of whom went on to become household names (Les Dawson, Paul Shane etc) but most of whom didn't except in their own circuit of clubs - those people, comedians, singers, groups, variety acts, didn't sit around drawing the dole waiting to be talent spotted, they trawled the agents, went to Jim Winsors club in Leeds every Tuesday for an audition (and other like it in every town), did the day jobs and chased the dream on a weekend.

THATS who we are comparing you to.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:20 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Then learn to write what you actually mean.

Because that is not what you wrote.

Indeed. Billions in uncollected corporation tax is absolute peanuts.

Then do it yourself if you're so obsessed.

Perhaps you need to learn to read correctly - and not read into things what you want them to say.

The potential pension deficit in this country is trillions - not billions so I not sure how collecting every penny of corporation tax is actually going to solve the issue. But you know best!!

I did - on the day I looked you had posted on just over 70% of the threads on the first page - talk about liking the sound of your own voice!!

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:00 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The potential pension deficit in this country is trillions - not billions so I not sure how collecting every penny of corporation tax is actually going to solve the issue. But you know best!!

You are aware that pensions aren't paid in a lump sum on the day of retirement? The assertion that the "potential pension deficit in this country is trillions" is scaremongering that even Osborne would shy away from

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:43 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Perhaps you need to learn to read correctly - and not read into things what you want them to say.

I do not need to 'read' anything into your post.

Let's examine it again.

earlier, Sal Paradise wrote:

Those of us fortunate enough to have a job have to work to provide the taxes to provide the funding for the benefits. Can no one see why those that do work resent supporting those that "do not want to work" and would like to see them at least contribute something for the money...

"Those of us" – not 'me', but "us". You are not writing about yourself, but about a wider group.

Then: "those that do work" – again, not 'me' or 'I', but a larger group.

You are commenting as though representing a group and not just yourself.

Sal Paradise wrote:

The potential pension deficit in this country is trillions - not billions so I not sure how collecting every penny of corporation tax is actually going to solve the issue. But you know best!!

You do not understand pensions, then. See cod'ead's post directly above this one.

Sal Paradise wrote:

I did - on the day I looked you had posted on just over 70% of the threads on the first page - talk about liking the sound of your own voice!!

Including the three announcement threads, there are 21 threads currently on the front page of this forum. Looking at the titles, I have not absolutely not posted in nine of these. I may have made an odd post in the music, TV, film and 'interesting things on the internet' thread. I cannot recall and, if I have, it's one or two posts out of those entire threads. But then again, if you went through every single page on every thread on the front page of this forum, you'll be able to link to any posts on those threads. Won't you?

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:10 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

... What I said was for someone who has a job can you not understand the frustration of those i.e. me who pay taxes against those who simply do not want to work...

Yes, I can understand a little of the frustration of you paying for those who do not want to work.

However, let's look at it realistically ...for most people who find themselves without a job, it's pretty traumatic.
They want to work and most of them actually pride themselves on working. Their job and providing for their families was part of who they feel they are and what sort of person they feel they are.
So, when they find themelves out of work, for many it's like the bottom has fallen out of their world.
I've been there, thankfully not for long, and I know how I felt.

So, I feel that we need to help those in that position and am glad that I live in a country civilised enough to do that.
(Whether we help enough is another matter).

As for the "won't work" people, I don't have much respect for their attitude but I take consolation from the fact that they seem to be a very small proportion of the unemployed.
As long as the unemployed list is greater than the job vacancies list (six times greater, last time I looked), I would find it difficult to tell who is willing to work, who isn't willing to work and who just isn't going about it the right way.
If helping the "genuine" means that some malingerers also get some cash for nothing, it's "a price worth paying" (*).
Not only that but, right now, I'd rather see those who want a job actually get one ... but we don't see much happening in that area and THAT is what frustrates me.

(*) Quote - Norman Lamont May 1991 - ... except he thought UNemployment was a price worth paying. The current goverment (I believe) sees it the same way as he did, but they are pointing the finger at the unemployed as though it's their own fault. They seem to forget the "for the people" part of what democracy is for.

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:16 am  

^

Re: More undeserving poor told they should work for benefits : Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:24 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

If helping the "genuine" means that some malingerers also get some cash for nothing, it's "a price worth paying" (*).
Not only that but, right now, I'd rather see those who want a job actually get one ... but we don't see much happening in that area and THAT is what frustrates me.

Add to the list of malingerers all of those currently on health related benefits for its a well known FACT that if you claim for illness or disability then you are malingering and politicians are allowed to point at you and blame you for all sorts of society problems and deficits.

There is an awful lot of mis-information being issued by politicians of various flavours regarding benefits and "cheats" to which the blindingly obvious question is, "If you know that they are cheating then why are you continuing to pay them ?"

To which there is no answer other than "Because we're rubbish at doing our job".