Re: Marriage Equality Vote Today : Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:16 pm  

Dally wrote:

Rock God X wrote:

. This march towards equality for all citizens is going only one way - there will be no turning back.

Why do you think that? History shows that not to be the case. So there has been no turning back on collective pay bargaining and union power, no prospective turning back on employment rights, no actual reduction in employment rights, no turning back on the welfare state, etc, etc. etc?

As I have said umpteen times "rights" are granted by the powerful - whether a few powerful people or the silent majority - to others. When the powerful think their benevolence is being abused they withdraw rights and often harshly.

By your feeble logic, we should deny equal rights to Jews, just on the off chance that your nightmare scenario becomes reality. The fact of the matter is that this piece of legislation is right and it is just. I've yet to hear a single compelling argument against. All we seem to get from opponents is selective quoting of holy texts and apocalyptic stupidity like your Nazi idea.

And whilst there have been attempts by (mainly Tory) Governments to remove some rights from workers, there's been nothing that you'd put on a par with Nazi Germany. Over the course of the last century or so, the march has been very much in one direction.

Re: Marriage Equality Vote Today : Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:26 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

By your feeble logic, we should deny equal rights to Jews, just on the off chance that your nightmare scenario becomes reality. The fact of the matter is that this piece of legislation is right and it is just. I've yet to hear a single compelling argument against. All we seem to get from opponents is selective quoting of holy texts and apocalyptic stupidity like your Nazi idea.

And whilst there have been attempts by (mainly Tory) Governments to remove some rights from workers, there's been nothing that you'd put on a par with Nazi Germany. Over the course of the last century or so, the march has been very much in one direction.

Nazi Germany was just an example of how quickly things can change even in a modern society. My basic premise is that times change but human fundamentals do not. So, at some time the pendulum WILL swing. that may not be tomorrow, in 10 years, even in 50 years but it will.

The last century or so saw those "rights" introduced as the country got richer. the country looks set to get very much poorer in relative and probably real terms. With that things will change.

As another example, civil liberties are being eroded at an enormous rate. The instruments of the state and indeed private companies are getting increasingly authoritarian - no longer in our everyday lives do people in positions of authority take a balanced view but now its a case of fine people for any anything, no mitigation. Whereas, it is very difficult to get accountability the other way round.

Re: Marriage Equality Vote Today : Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:34 pm  

Nice to see Godwin is alive and kicking...

Re: Marriage Equality Vote Today : Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:35 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

Yes votes: 400 No votes: 175

A victory for common decency.

This country

Re: Marriage Equality Vote Today : Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:37 pm  

Big Graeme wrote:

Nice to see Godwin is alive and kicking...

My example was pertinent though.

Re: Marriage Equality Vote Today : Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:39 pm  

Dally wrote:

Rock God X wrote:

By your feeble logic, we should deny equal rights to Jews, just on the off chance that your nightmare scenario becomes reality. The fact of the matter is that this piece of legislation is right and it is just. I've yet to hear a single compelling argument against. All we seem to get from opponents is selective quoting of holy texts and apocalyptic stupidity like your Nazi idea.

And whilst there have been attempts by (mainly Tory) Governments to remove some rights from workers, there's been nothing that you'd put on a par with Nazi Germany. Over the course of the last century or so, the march has been very much in one direction.

Nazi Germany was just an example of how quickly things can change even in a modern society. My basic premise is that times change but human fundamentals do not. So, at some time the pendulum WILL swing. that may not be tomorrow, in 10 years, even in 50 years but it will.

The last century or so saw those "rights" introduced as the country got richer. the country looks set to get very much poorer in relative and probably real terms. With that things will change.

As another example, civil liberties are being eroded at an enormous rate. The instruments of the state and indeed private companies are getting increasingly authoritarian - no longer in our everyday lives do people in positions of authority take a balanced view but now its a case of fine people for any anything, no mitigation. Whereas, it is very difficult to get accountability the other way round.

Whether or not your outlandish ideas about the future come to pass is immaterial. One cannot seek to deny rights to a group of people on the basis that society might change in fifty years time and, if it does, they may conceivably become targets. You do what is right because it is right, you don't base your decisions on some breathtakingly unlikely scenario you've just dreamt up.

Re: Marriage Equality Vote Today : Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:50 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

Whether or not your outlandish ideas about the future come to pass is immaterial. One cannot seek to deny rights to a group of people on the basis that society might change in fifty years time and, if it does, they may conceivably become targets. You do what is right because it is right, you don't base your decisions on some breathtakingly unlikely scenario you've just dreamt up.

I didn't suggest denying them anything.

Re: Marriage Equality Vote Today : Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:57 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

Yes votes: 400 No votes: 175

A victory for common decency.

58% of Tory MP's failed to vote for equality, including that saviour of civil liberties David Davis.

Re: Marriage Equality Vote Today : Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:57 pm  

Dally wrote:

I see no point or reason for gay marriage other than homosexuals clamouring for "rights" for the sake of it.

Hmmm.

Re: Marriage Equality Vote Today : Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:59 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

Hmmm.

And? No denial there was there.