Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:47 pm  

cod'ead wrote: By providing the facilities for research - universities etc, the state very much generates funding of research. The military also funds research that transfers to civilian life. I mentioned the WWW, you can also add to that mobile cellular communications, GPS etc. Without the initial state funding, it's extremely doubtful we would be communicating even now. On my second point, why are some companies happy to pay their share of tax, while others will pay lawyers and accountants $millions to avoid paying their share? If the delinquent corporations could be brought into the tax loop then rates could be reduced. Why should some corporations feel they are entitled to benefit from infrastructure, education etc while making a zero contribution to the funding? A timely report The state can only spend the money it generates either through taxation or borrowing - so without the private sector it would not be able to invest anything as it would not generate any funds. It would not be able to borrow as it would have no way of repaying the loans. There has been plenty of private sector funded developments that have enhanced our lives - transport being one, all the mechanical advances made during the industrial revolution etc. On the second point its a cultural thing driven from the top - I wonder what CT rate we need to encourage all to pay? What is the rate where diminishing returns stops in this area 20% obviously isn't low enough.

cod'ead wrote: By providing the facilities for research - universities etc, the state very much generates funding of research. The military also funds research that transfers to civilian life. I mentioned the WWW, you can also add to that mobile cellular communications, GPS etc. Without the initial state funding, it's extremely doubtful we would be communicating even now. On my second point, why are some companies happy to pay their share of tax, while others will pay lawyers and accountants $millions to avoid paying their share? If the delinquent corporations could be brought into the tax loop then rates could be reduced. Why should some corporations feel they are entitled to benefit from infrastructure, education etc while making a zero contribution to the funding? A timely report The state can only spend the money it generates either through taxation or borrowing - so without the private sector it would not be able to invest anything as it would not generate any funds. It would not be able to borrow as it would have no way of repaying the loans. There has been plenty of private sector funded developments that have enhanced our lives - transport being one, all the mechanical advances made during the industrial revolution etc. On the second point its a cultural thing driven from the top - I wonder what CT rate we need to encourage all to pay? What is the rate where diminishing returns stops in this area 20% obviously isn't low enough.

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:16 pm  

Lord Elpers wrote:

Wow.... and you are the one suggesting others do not understand the system!

Greed = greed. Which can be found in all walks of life , be it a capitalist, a worker, a communist or a union official. (the last 2 are really the same delete which is inappropriate )
Capitalism while by no means perfect is the system the great majority of the world prefers while other systems have failed badly or been
rejected.
Capitalism has produced most of the finest advances in science, medicine, agriculture, transport etc etc
Capitalism creates the products that give employment and create the profits that pays the taxes to fund the our services.
A share holder is either someone who risks his own money which is invested in a company to help it progress for the benefit of customers, shareholders, taxpayers and employees.
The other type of shareholders are the Insurance companies, Building Societies, Unions, Local Authorities, Pension Funds who invest for the benefit of a large chunk of the population.
Those sitting at home just now watching the 40" plasmas are most likely to be the workshy.
The alternative is to live in a world where you aspire to own a Trabant and are content to keep your job as a lift-man for the rest of your vodka swilling life.

Those large multinationals that are allowed to "cheat" the tax system is not because of capitalism but rather because of weak politicians. But Capitalism makes for competition which gives you the freedom the choose Costa Coffee over Starbucks and not to buy from Amazon etc. You can even Google to find the alternatives to Google!

Having said that I would like to see the law changed so that the large public companies have to have a decent percentage (say at least 30%) of their shares owned by their employees which would be very much in line with Capitalist principles

Thank you for replying.

My only comment is that your replies only add evidence to what I already understood and knew.

I always appreciate different insights and understandings of situations and that is the beauty of open debate.

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:24 pm  

Corruption in Greece? Surely not. Officially joint most corrupt in Western Europe/the EU, alongside Romania, Bulgaria and Italy. Illustrious company indeed. When you're down there with the Italians you're definitely up to no good.

Corruption in Greece? Surely not. Officially joint most corrupt in Western Europe/the EU, alongside Romania, Bulgaria and Italy. Illustrious company indeed. When you're down there with the Italians you're definitely up to no good.

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:07 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I wonder what CT rate we need to encourage all to pay? What is the rate where diminishing returns stops in this area 20% obviously isn't low enough.

Seems to work well enougyh in the US, it's 35% there

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:44 pm  

Corruption is endemic within human society. There isn't some magical force-field which prevents it from leaking out of Greece.

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:03 pm  

Further to my earlier comments on multi-nationals avoiding paying UK tax. Would any of the advocates of free and unfettered capitalism care to comment on the ethics of this?

That this House regrets that corporate tax avoidance costs the UK Exchequer billions annually, and that several international companies have been largely responsible; is dismayed to learn from the report Alliance Boots and the Need for Corporate Tax Reform, published by Unite/War On Want/Change to Win, that Alliance Boots, an ostensibly British company, has lawfully avoided more than £1 billion in corporate taxes since 2007 when it entered private ownership in the largest leveraged buyout in UK corporate history, following which the company reincorporated in the tax haven of Zug, Switzerland, where it earns no revenue, and is controlled by entities in Luxembourg, Gibraltar and the Cayman Islands; is concerned that it avoided taxes by loading most of the £9 billion buyout debt onto the highly profitable UK business, thus shifting profits abroad; notes that Alliance Boots significantly lowered its UK tax bill while deriving an estimated 40 per cent of its revenue from UK taxpayers, primarily via NHS prescriptions; further notes that Alliance Boots is seeking to increase its taxpayer-financed profits on the back of NHS privatisation; and calls on Alliance Boots to fully disclose its profits and taxes for all countries where it has significant revenue, on HM Revenue and Customs to comprehensively investigate Alliance Boots' tax practices, and on the Government to modernise the taxation of private-equity and heavily debt-financed businesses, and to require companies to disclose significant revenues that are derived from public sector contracts, and to reform the financial and taxation regulations in British Overseas Territories.

We have a government who are quite happy with that arrangement

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:19 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

We have a government who are quite happy with that arrangement

I think it's a mistake to assume they are happy with it. The truth is they don't have any choice. Or they won't be in government.

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:07 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

I think it's a mistake to assume they are happy with it. The truth is they don't have any choice. Or they won't be in government.

I may be growing rose-tinted eyes in my dotage but I have a gut feeling that there is an underswell of discontent with the status quo. This movement will not recognise national barriers, the only thing that may hinder it is various governments' attempts to introduce a "snoopers' charter". But hinder it is all it will do, it won't stop it.

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:23 pm  

Slowly, but surely, the rose tinted spectacles and blinkers are becoming an out of date fashion accessory for so many.

I wonder what the new season my bring?

We live in interesting times.

Re: Greece - Rise of the left or rise of the young? : Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:10 am  

cod'ead wrote:

Seems to work well enougyh in the US, it's 35% there

That doesn't make any sense for the likes of Starbucks to pay CT at 35% on profits in the UK when it could pay CT at a much lower rate.

There has been much written about Apple and its tax avoidance strategy - perhaps all is not so great in US.

20% isn't preventing the likes of Vodafone and others paying, although it doesn't help when the likes of Brown bring in legislation to stop them paying tax on asset sales either.

The government should make sure its money is spent with companies that do pay their share, your example of Boots is a good one. Just make sure prescriptions are not valid at Boots. Government departments cannot get mobile phones from Vodafone etc.