Re: Boris Johnson - spinless leader ? : Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:57 am  

wotsupcas wrote:

Oh come on. Remaining in The CU and SM isn't leaving the EU. Even you and Corbyn must realise that. So therefore, no they didn't support leaving under any reasonable circumstances

And therein lies the problem of Brexit, way too many versions of the "same thing" and everything was going to be so easy

Re: Boris Johnson - spinless leader ? : Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:52 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Brexit is "a bag of spanners", trying to deliver the impossible (leaving the EU & Customs union and a free trade agreement, whilst not driving a bus through the good Friday agreement etc, etc) and having failed to meet all of the criteria, N. Ireland, due to it's low population numbers and the minimal damage to Tory aspirations, has been thrown under the bus - Johnson is still in denial about the need for any customs checks, despite the fact that there is a direct border with Eire (the EU) - allowing people and goods to move "freely" in that part of the UK.
As I've already said, the free trade deal wont get through and we will end up leaving with no deal, which WILL put the skids under all of Johnsons spending pledges.

I said it all along and consistently on here - no deal was the only way to do Brexit. Anything else would be a fudge and a completely mess. Having somebody negotiate whose heart is not in it was a fatal flaw - but May had a very inflated opinion of her abilities - you would have thought the 2017 election campaign would have taught her a lesson but no. On she went in an almost masochistic humiliation. It is exactly the position Labour are in - nobody wants to leave so how are they going to negotiate a deal with the EU? and who in the Labour party is going to campaign for leave?

On Ireland if they want to start shooting each other so be it - we allow killing in East London as a means of containing gang violence into a small area. I appreciate that is not very woke but I doubt many on here really care about gang killings in London. The country is awash with class A drugs - the police have an agreement with the gangs and it stops wars - do any of us really bother that our kids are taking class A drugs every weekend - its miniscule number of kids that get killed using these drugs. Wokeness is a blight on society and commands far too much attention from the likes of Momentum and high profile lefties such as Owen Jones and Ash Sarkar.

Re: Boris Johnson - spinless leader ? : Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:19 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

You'll never get our resident Tories to admit that the failure to get the Brexit deals through was anything other than their own fault. The opposition has no responsibility to get a relatively hard Brexit like the May deal through - it went against their 2017 manifesto and doesn't meet their own base requirements.

Let's have a look at Labour's six base requirements - which were
1. Does it deliver the exact same benefits as currently we have in the SM & CU
2. Does it ensure a strong future relationship with the EU
3. Does it ensure fair migration across the EU
4. Does it defend rights and protections
5. Does it protect national security
6. Does it deliver for all regions/nations in the UK

What does that suggest - remain is the only way of delivering the above - so let's not kid anyone that Labour wanted to observe the result of the referendum. Anyone who thinks it is otherwise is as disingenuous as the Labour offer in their manifesto to support the result of the referendum - they had no intention and have demonstrated such at every opportunity. 90%+ of all Labour MPs voted to remain.

Re: Boris Johnson - spinless leader ? : Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:07 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I said it all along and consistently on here - no deal was the only way to do Brexit. Anything else would be a fudge and a completely mess. Having somebody negotiate whose heart is not in it was a fatal flaw - but May had a very inflated opinion of her abilities - you would have thought the 2017 election campaign would have taught her a lesson but no. On she went in an almost masochistic humiliation. It is exactly the position Labour are in - nobody wants to leave so how are they going to negotiate a deal with the EU? and who in the Labour party is going to campaign for leave?

On Ireland if they want to start shooting each other so be it - we allow killing in East London as a means of containing gang violence into a small area. I appreciate that is not very woke but I doubt many on here really care about gang killings in London. The country is awash with class A drugs - the police have an agreement with the gangs and it stops wars - do any of us really bother that our kids are taking class A drugs every weekend - its miniscule number of kids that get killed using these drugs. Wokeness is a blight on society and commands far too much attention from the likes of Momentum and high profile lefties such as Owen Jones and Ash Sarkar.

I know that you have posted some of this previously, although I done ever remember you advocating a "no deal" Brexit and acceptance of WTO terms etc - I thought that you were more in the "Germany will need to sell their Mercs" camp but, no problem.

However, your stance on N.Ireland is utterly ridiculous.
The UK signed up to the Good Friday Agreement, which, you and the Tories are now throwing on the bonfire.
I dont know how old you are but, I dont think you are a "kid" and to suggest that a return to the troubles of the 70's and 80's, in order to deliver Brexit is quite vulgar.
It would send a clear message to ALL of the people in N. Ireland that The UK Government doesn't give a toss about their plight and give a green light to the "paramilitaries" on both sides to start killing each other and lets not forget that the troubles weren't isolated to the border towns of Ireland - I'm sure that you will remember the bombings in Brighton and Warrington - sorry but, to give the "ok" to a repeat of this is abhorrent and you really should think a little harder before advocating such stuff.

Re: Boris Johnson - spinless leader ? : Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:20 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I know that you have posted some of this previously, although I done ever remember you advocating a "no deal" Brexit and acceptance of WTO terms etc - I thought that you were more in the "Germany will need to sell their Mercs" camp but, no problem.

However, your stance on N.Ireland is utterly ridiculous.
The UK signed up to the Good Friday Agreement, which, you and the Tories are now throwing on the bonfire.
I dont know how old you are but, I dont think you are a "kid" and to suggest that a return to the troubles of the 70's and 80's, in order to deliver Brexit is quite vulgar.
It would send a clear message to ALL of the people in N. Ireland that The UK Government doesn't give a toss about their plight and give a green light to the "paramilitaries" on both sides to start killing each other and lets not forget that the troubles weren't isolated to the border towns of Ireland - I'm sure that you will remember the bombings in Brighton and Warrington - sorry but, to give the "ok" to a repeat of this is abhorrent and you really should think a little harder before advocating such stuff.

So the whole country should suffer so a few religious nuts wont kill each other, really. They can't even form their own parliament why do we give these idiots any credence whatsoever - as I said we allow gang killings every week in East London I don't see you complaining. Why is Ireland a special case? We have an example of yet another Islam-related killing last week yet we think its unacceptable to criticise - if we do we are labelled racists, again why should Ireland be such a special case? Why should this miniscule minority its issues hold us all back?

Who is to say it will return or that the Good Friday agreement will stop a repeat - let's face it as soon as the Catholics have ascendency in the north the protestants will be second class citizens and violence will commence once again. They can't even have a democratic assembly.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Boris Johnson - spinless leader ? : Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:05 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

So the whole country should suffer so a few religious nuts wont kill each other, really. They can't even form their own parliament why do we give these idiots any credence whatsoever - as I said we allow gang killings every week in East London I don't see you complaining. Why is Ireland a special case? We have an example of yet another Islam-related killing last week yet we think its unacceptable to criticise - if we do we are labelled racists, again why should Ireland be such a special case? Why should this miniscule minority its issues hold us all back?

Who is to say it will return or that the Good Friday agreement will stop a repeat - let's face it as soon as the Catholics have ascendency in the north the protestants will be second class citizens and violence will commence once again. They can't even have a democratic assembly.

Okay, what you’re doing here is devaluing other people’s values, beliefs, perspectives and even to some extent humanity, as they are in the way of your priorities.

Now we all do something similar to some extent, i imagine, but generally most of us are aware that if we run too far with it, we’ll look really bad, selfish, cruel, etc. and lose the argument

I mean, I read your position as ‘there’s gang violence in London, so there’s no reason not to have a super hard brexit’. It’s one of the most random grab bags of nonsense i’ve ever seen, outside of a Donald Trump speech.

Imagine if my position was that ‘we shouldn’t be forced into this appalling mistake by a bunch of <insert every prejudiced stereotype about Brexit-voters>, because there is too much domestic violence and nobody is talking about that.’

Basically, you condone wife-beating, because you’re not woke and voted for Brexit.

Tbf, that is the rhetorical spirit this general election campaign is being conducted in, with two bogeyman leaders motivating the other side’s base. What a massive failure.

Re: Boris Johnson - spinless leader ? : Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:30 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

Okay, what you’re doing here is devaluing other people’s values, beliefs, perspectives and even to some extent humanity, as they are in the way of your priorities.

Now we all do something similar to some extent, i imagine, but generally most of us are aware that if we run too far with it, we’ll look really bad, selfish, cruel, etc. and lose the argument

I mean, I read your position as ‘there’s gang violence in London, so there’s no reason not to have a super hard brexit’. It’s one of the most random grab bags of nonsense i’ve ever seen, outside of a Donald Trump speech.

Imagine if my position was that ‘we shouldn’t be forced into this appalling mistake by a bunch of <insert every prejudiced stereotype about Brexit-voters>, because there is too much domestic violence and nobody is talking about that.’

Basically, you condone wife-beating, because you’re not woke and voted for Brexit.

Tbf, that is the rhetorical spirit this general election campaign is being conducted in, with two bogeyman leaders motivating the other side’s base. What a massive failure.

It's far worse than that.
To effectively trash a peace deal in Ireland for some ideological "power grab" against a "perceived" economic enemy is quite vulgar and then to justify it because we "allow" gang violence on the streets of London.
I'd suggest that we should be dealing with the drug related violence and not trying to deliberately add to it, may be a better solution.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Boris Johnson - spinless leader ? : Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:53 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

It's far worse than that.
To effectively trash a peace deal in Ireland for some ideological "power grab" against a "perceived" economic enemy is quite vulgar and then to justify it because we "allow" gang violence on the streets of London.
I'd suggest that we should be dealing with the drug related violence and not trying to deliberately add to it, may be a better solution.

Aye, if you could disregard any negative consequence of an action because there are other negative things in the world, then it would be easier to advocate a position.

Never mind the democratic mandate for Brexit, it’s not like they have democracy in North Korea, is it? And we allow that.

Re: Boris Johnson - spinless leader ? : Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:16 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

Okay, what you’re doing here is devaluing other people’s values, beliefs, perspectives and even to some extent humanity, as they are in the way of your priorities.

Now we all do something similar to some extent, i imagine, but generally most of us are aware that if we run too far with it, we’ll look really bad, selfish, cruel, etc. and lose the argument

I mean, I read your position as ‘there’s gang violence in London, so there’s no reason not to have a super hard brexit’. It’s one of the most random grab bags of nonsense i’ve ever seen, outside of a Donald Trump speech.

Imagine if my position was that ‘we shouldn’t be forced into this appalling mistake by a bunch of <insert every prejudiced stereotype about Brexit-voters>, because there is too much domestic violence and nobody is talking about that.’

Basically, you condone wife-beating, because you’re not woke and voted for Brexit.

Tbf, that is the rhetorical spirit this general election campaign is being conducted in, with two bogeyman leaders motivating the other side’s base. What a massive failure.

What I am saying is this - is it fair that the will of 17.4m people be thwarted because it potentially impacts a very small minority? What I am saying why is everyone so protective of the GFA yet seem oblivious to killings of young black people? Could it be that its yet another excuse not to deliver on the referendum.

In life we all have to make compromises - the police have accepted it couldn't stop the drug dealing/flow so it tries to minimise the impact of gang wars by allowing the flow for the most part but intercepting an occasional shipment makes everyone think they are doing their best.

What has wife beating got to do with Woke? What I do think is if you have a penis you are a man even if you choose to wear a wig and a dress - not a tough concept. If you were born a woman you are a woman not a sis-woman.

Re: Boris Johnson - spinless leader ? : Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:44 pm  

Cronus wrote:

I'd sooner have a bloke who's shagged around a bit.

I reckon you've got it about right with 'a bit'.
I mean, come on Flashman, look at the state of the bumbling eejit.
Oh yes, every woman's dream.
No doubt.