Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:08 pm  

Backwardsman wrote:

There needs to be a law written regarding this!!! I see it the length and breadth of the Internet.

Just as Godwin's law predicts that online discussion growing longer will lead to the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler, this new law will predict that the mention of 'Corbyn', followed by the mention of 'socialism', will inevitably result in the mention of 'Venezuela'.

Awesome work Backwoodsman, you totally smashed it!

Love your command of the English language (smashed it) .[/quote]

Not so hot on the IT hey Backwardsman? Virtual pot, kettle, black.

Backwardsman wrote:

I point out the spectacular Faiilure [IRONY ALERT] of socialism in Venezuela because corbyn [IRONY ALERT] and Livingston and the rest of the left wing hierarchy have for years held up Venezuela ,as a paragon of virtue. This was to be how a government should be run, meanwhile the country is destitute. Strangely they are now silent on the issue. Although Livingston as usual is blaming it all on the Americans. If you like we could discuss other socialist disasters, Russia for instance. Corbyns puppet master milne [IRONY ALERT] still is in rapture to the delights of socialism/communism.

Ooh let's do a list of all the capitalist countries that have failed & the fascist leaders who the Tories have invited over & held hands with.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:58 pm  

tigertot wrote:

Love your command of the English language (smashed it) .

Not so hot on the IT hey Backwardsman? Virtual pot, kettle, black.

Ooh let's do a list of all the capitalist countries that have failed & the fascist leaders who the Tories have invited over & held hands with.[/quote]

Venezuela shows why Socialism on that scale simply doesn't work. How much did Chavez spend of the country's money funding his last campaign!! It is what happens when the government have access to all the capital of a country they just spend it unwisely - the same will happen if Labour get it.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:14 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Venezuela shows why Socialism on that scale simply doesn't work. How much did Chavez spend of the country's money funding his last campaign!! It is what happens when the government have access to all the capital of a country they just spend it unwisely - the same will happen if Labour get it.

If you say Venezuela enough times, it doesn't make it any more of a convincing argument; particularly if you ignore the effect of US sanctions, and the desperate attempts to get hold of their oil reserves.

By your argument, one could say that the global wealth inequality, where 42 people hold as much wealth as the poorest 50% of the worlds population - proves that capitalism on this scale simply doesn't work.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:19 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

It is what happens when the government have access to all the capital of a country they just spend it unwisely - the same will happen if Labour get it.

Ooh let's do a list of all the banks, businesses, privatisations & infrastructure projects that the Tories have wisely thrown billions at & have failed.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:04 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Venezuela shows why Socialism on that scale simply doesn't work. How much did Chavez spend of the country's money funding his last campaign!! It is what happens when the government have access to all the capital of a country they just spend it unwisely - the same will happen if Labour get it.

While it’s arguable whether it is a socialist system, and it isn’t remotely a model i’d advocate... China these last couple of decades.

Also, it isn’t like Latin America hasn’t had it’s fair share of deplorable and failing right wing and capitalist regimes. While Venezuela is a striking example, that doesn’t necessarily mean it is widely generizable.

The extent of democracy and corruption in a country is a better indicator of likely success, which can be defined in different ways admittedly, than where it sits on the economic left-right spectrum.

The idea that we’re only a Corbyn premiership away from becoming Venezuela is ludicrous hyperbole.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:37 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

The extent of democracy and corruption in a country is a better indicator of likely success, which can be defined in different ways admittedly, than where it sits on the economic left-right spectrum.

As should the levels of literacy/education, employment, health, social security & housing.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:21 pm  

tigertot wrote: As should the levels of literacy/education, employment, health, social security & housing. A lot of that correlates with democracy. Well according to this book anyway... https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dictators-Hand ... /ref=nodl_ that I found very interesting and pretty compelling. There’s a 20-minute film about it by a guy call CGP Grey on YouTube that gives a good summary. In the book (not sure about the YouTube) there’s also a ‘different’ take on foreign aid. That it is usually a bribe, rather than generosity, and it is very often an ineffective bribe. For example paying another country to fight a war as a proxy on your behalf - they’re incentivised to never quite win, because then the cash will stop flowing. Also, debt relief to non-democratic nations tends not to be helpful.

tigertot wrote: As should the levels of literacy/education, employment, health, social security & housing. A lot of that correlates with democracy. Well according to this book anyway... https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dictators-Hand ... /ref=nodl_ that I found very interesting and pretty compelling. There’s a 20-minute film about it by a guy call CGP Grey on YouTube that gives a good summary. In the book (not sure about the YouTube) there’s also a ‘different’ take on foreign aid. That it is usually a bribe, rather than generosity, and it is very often an ineffective bribe. For example paying another country to fight a war as a proxy on your behalf - they’re incentivised to never quite win, because then the cash will stop flowing. Also, debt relief to non-democratic nations tends not to be helpful.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:26 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

While it’s arguable whether it is a socialist system, and it isn’t remotely a model i’d advocate... China these last couple of decades.

Also, it isn’t like Latin America hasn’t had it’s fair share of deplorable and failing right wing and capitalist regimes. While Venezuela is a striking example, that doesn’t necessarily mean it is widely generizable.

The extent of democracy and corruption in a country is a better indicator of likely success, which can be defined in different ways admittedly, than where it sits on the economic left-right spectrum.

The idea that we’re only a Corbyn premiership away from becoming Venezuela is ludicrous hyperbole.

I was not suggesting that the UK would end up like Venezuela - most of our oil has already gone. What I am suggesting is if you get a Labour Government public spending will go through the roof and there are only two ways of funding that. Higher taxes or higher borrowing

Corbyn has suggested that the minimum wage be raised to £10/hour - seems like a good idea until you think about who is going to pay for it. Take Morrisons the impact of a minimum wages increase on that company will be to halve their profits. So its likely that prices will rise its pretty certain so we all pay but what happens in the public sector who pays?

Governments waste money because it doesn't matter if budgets are not kept to and Governments are much slower to react to poorly performing projects the NHS IT patient record system is an example of Labour government run project. The more government spending the higher the inefficiency and greater waste cost.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:09 pm  

Venezuela is an authoritarian state which should be opposed.
They're paying the price for not diversifying their economy. Oil makes up 97% of their exports, and they've never been able to recover since the oil price dropped a few years ago.
Although, they're not as socialistic as you may think, most land, capital, and businesses is privately owned.

I dont agree with the way the opposition and foreign governments have declared the opposition leader the rightfull president, considering they boycotted the last one.
Mudero should just call an election under the supervision of the UN (although, I think when the UN offered to observe the last election, the opposition declined).
Something tells me that the election would be closer than the media would have us believe, which is why most people opposed to the Mudero government are calling for him to resign, as opposed to calling for an election.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:38 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I was not suggesting that the UK would end up like Venezuela - most of our oil has already gone. What I am suggesting is if you get a Labour Government public spending will go through the roof and there are only two ways of funding that. Higher taxes or higher borrowing

Higher tax revenue can be achieved through stimulus spending too. I appreciate it is a stretch, but no more so than lower taxes for the wealthy as stimuli and nonsense like trickledown.

Sal Paradise wrote:

Corbyn has suggested that the minimum wage be raised to £10/hour - seems like a good idea until you think about who is going to pay for it. Take Morrisons the impact of a minimum wages increase on that company will be to halve their profits. So its likely that prices will rise its pretty certain so we all pay but what happens in the public sector who pays?

On a basic level, it’s a transfer of wealth from shareholders to workers. Secondary consequences are harder to predict - it could be inflationary, and it could increase economic activity and equality. You never really know until you pull the lever. As Brexit enthusiasts are fond of saying, the models are often wrong. At the end of the day, as CGP Grey says, politicians reward the people who are important in getting them into power and keeping them there. Corbyn presumably sees votes among the low-paid.

What is about you and Morrison’s btw?

Sal Paradise wrote:

Governments waste money because it doesn't matter if budgets are not kept to and Governments are much slower to react to poorly performing projects the NHS IT patient record system is an example of Labour government run project. The more government spending the higher the inefficiency and greater waste cost.

Organisations in which incentives are poorly structured are inefficient. I don’t think that’s more true for Government’s than any other types. Those bankers who crashed the economy 12 years ago weren’t bad people - or if they were that wasn’t the cause. It was just a horribly distorted and inefficient system.