Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:06 pm  

I know that Corbyn isnt a great leader and his reputation has been shredded by the right wing media, much in the same way they did with Ed Milliband. So, how does Johnson manage to attract so many votes? Its widely acknowledged that hes a liar and has been responsible for numerous blunders yet people still vote for him and the Tories - a party which favours the rich, which brought us 9 years of austerity and 3 years of brexit. Where is the logic?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:14 pm  

silver2 wrote:

I know that Corbyn isnt a great leader and his reputation has been shredded by the right wing media, much in the same way they did with Ed Milliband. So, how does Johnson manage to attract so many votes? Its widely acknowledged that hes a liar and has been responsible for numerous blunders yet people still vote for him and the Tories - a party which favours the rich, which brought us 9 years of austerity and 3 years of brexit. Where is the logic?

Easy, the Tories love him because he says exactly what they wish to hear and the no Tories blinded by the Farage "Brexit" message, just want it (Brexit) delivered.
I detest Boris and voted remain but, apart from the Libdems (and SNP), there is no alternative.

Labour cant decide on the pay they wish to follow and therefore dont deserve anyone's vote, which is a chuffin' horrible position for all of the electorate.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:54 pm  

silver2 wrote:

I know that Corbyn isnt a great leader and his reputation has been shredded by the right wing media, much in the same way they did with Ed Milliband. So, how does Johnson manage to attract so many votes? Its widely acknowledged that hes a liar and has been responsible for numerous blunders yet people still vote for him and the Tories - a party which favours the rich, which brought us 9 years of austerity and 3 years of brexit. Where is the logic?

I’m broadly sympathetic to some of Corbyn’s politics. One thing that has become clear though, over his several years as leader of the Labour Party, imo, is that he is a terrible leader. That isn’t a reflection on him as a human being, necessarily, but it is a pretty massive issue when your job is being a leader.

In contrast to Blair, who made a virtue out of his lack of ideology and gave us the Private Finance Initiative, Corbyn is a prisoner of his principles trapped into inaction by them.

Why do people vote Conservative? They just have different values, preferences, and priorities. If we start out defining what is good, in our progressive or left of centre terms, then there is no logic to voting to Conservative. But they genuinely and sincerely prefer conservative and right of centre policies, because good looks different to them.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:48 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

I’m broadly sympathetic to some of Corbyn’s politics. One thing that has become clear though, over his several years as leader of the Labour Party, imo, is that he is a terrible leader. That isn’t a reflection on him as a human being, necessarily, but it is a pretty massive issue when your job is being a leader.

In contrast to Blair, who made a virtue out of his lack of ideology and gave us the Private Finance Initiative, Corbyn is a prisoner of his principles trapped into inaction by them.

I broadly agree - although I'd add that he is a good leader for those party members and activists (myself included) who are impressed with his values, integrity and refusal to engage in the personal vitriol that characterises a lot of political discourse now; he's not a good leader however, for those people who make judgements on less information - usually snippets and soundbites filtered through the mainstream media - who seem to universally despise him. On that basis, he fails on any measure in comparison to Blair, who was no kind of socialist, but a very slick PR man.

I've been an unwavering supporter of Corbyn - but even I'm starting to see that with him at the helm, the party will never catch a break in terms of its coverage - and that translates to votes. My fear is that the Blairite rump of the party might well stage another coup and actually be successful this time - and we'll end up back where we were; a version of the Labour party that is so watered down and centrist, that the RW media will stop vilifying it, because it has once again become harmless to the establishment - just like under Tony.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:09 pm  

bren2k wrote:

I broadly agree - although I'd add that he is a good leader for those party members and activists (myself included) who are impressed with his values, integrity and refusal to engage in the personal vitriol that characterises a lot of political discourse now; he's not a good leader however, for those people who make judgements on less information - usually snippets and soundbites filtered through the mainstream media - who seem to universally despise him. On that basis, he fails on any measure in comparison to Blair, who was no kind of socialist, but a very slick PR man.

I've been an unwavering supporter of Corbyn - but even I'm starting to see that with him at the helm, the party will never catch a break in terms of its coverage - and that translates to votes. My fear is that the Blairite rump of the party might well stage another coup and actually be successful this time - and we'll end up back where we were; a version of the Labour party that is so watered down and centrist, that the RW media will stop vilifying it, because it has once again become harmless to the establishment - just like under Tony.

Why you can't just accept socialism isn't wanted by the majority is beyond me.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:20 pm  

bren2k wrote:

I broadly agree - although I'd add that he is a good leader for those party members and activists (myself included) who are impressed with his values, integrity and refusal to engage in the personal vitriol that characterises a lot of political discourse now; he's not a good leader however, for those people who make judgements on less information - usually snippets and soundbites filtered through the mainstream media - who seem to universally despise him. On that basis, he fails on any measure in comparison to Blair, who was no kind of socialist, but a very slick PR man.

I've been an unwavering supporter of Corbyn - but even I'm starting to see that with him at the helm, the party will never catch a break in terms of its coverage - and that translates to votes. My fear is that the Blairite rump of the party might well stage another coup and actually be successful this time - and we'll end up back where we were; a version of the Labour party that is so watered down and centrist, that the RW media will stop vilifying it, because it has once again become harmless to the establishment - just like under Tony.

Yeah, very likely.

We don’t often get to choose the choices we have to take, the above being an example. Every choice is an sacrifice, but Corbyn seems incapable of compromising his principles - and a strength taken too far is a weakness. he is encumbered by scruple to the point of incapacity. That type of purity might be central to his sense of self, but maybe he should retreat to a hermitage then. Johnson, Raab, Rees-Mogg et al. coming for us, merciless, soulless wazzocks, and we’ve brought a stick of celery to a knife might. Organic, free-trade celery, no doubt, but that is offering less and less consolation.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:45 pm  

IR80 wrote:

Why you can't just accept socialism isn't wanted by the majority is beyond me.

Do you ever vary from the utterly simplistic? Some of the "socialist" things that the government does are pretty much its most popular - hence why the public loves the NHS and believes the railways should be renationalised. You must be fuming your party hasn't tried nationalised the health service, made all schools fee paying or introduced road tolls.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:06 pm  

[youtube][/youtube]

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

Do you ever vary from the utterly simplistic? Some of the "socialist" things that the government does are pretty much its most popular - hence why the public loves the NHS and believes the railways should be renationalised. You must be fuming your party hasn't tried nationalised the health service, made all schools fee paying or introduced road tolls.

The public do love the NHS, but not the bloated beast it has become, few people think the rail network should be nationalised, utterly simplisric is your description of your "up the conservatives" mantra.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:18 pm  

IR80 wrote: [youtube][/youtube]The public do love the NHS, but not the bloated beast it has become, few people think the rail network should be nationalised, . Sigh. There are myriad polls showing this overwhelmingly. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... ublic-view

IR80 wrote: [youtube][/youtube]The public do love the NHS, but not the bloated beast it has become, few people think the rail network should be nationalised, . Sigh. There are myriad polls showing this overwhelmingly. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... ublic-view

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:59 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote: Sigh. There are myriad polls showing this overwhelmingly. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... ublic-view Ah yes, YouGov from 2017, CEO a German, that's credibility for you.

The Ghost of '99 wrote: Sigh. There are myriad polls showing this overwhelmingly. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... ublic-view Ah yes, YouGov from 2017, CEO a German, that's credibility for you.