Re: Death penalty? : Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:02 am  

You could add to that argument, the person who can't run into the burning building, because they're in a wheelchair or are 82.

Do age or disability mean that people become less special?

Re: Death penalty? : Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:07 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

For someone to be found guilty of murder, it has to be shown that they acted 'with intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm'. I'd say that constituted being premeditated.

Yes, but that is not pre-meditated murder now is it? Contrast with the requirement to intend to kill (not "just" a bit of GBH) in the offence of attempted murder.

Re: Death penalty? : Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:32 pm  

Dally wrote:

Yes, but that is not pre-meditated murder now is it?

Well, yes. If you act deliberately to cause someone serious injury knowing that your actions might kill them, it is premeditated murder. The act itself is premeditated and you undertake that act knowing that death is a possible outcome.

Are you seriously saying that if I deliberately drive my car at someone intending to kill them I should hang, but if I deliberately drive my car at someone just intending to cripple them but killing them in the process, I shouldn't? That's weird, even for you.

[John_D]

Re: Death penalty? : Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:46 pm  

Bring back hanging for tautology

Re: Death penalty? : Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:09 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

Well, yes. If you act deliberately to cause someone serious injury knowing that your actions might kill them, it is premeditated murder. The act itself is premeditated and you undertake that act knowing that death is a possible outcome.

Are you seriously saying that if I deliberately drive my car at someone intending to kill them I should hang, but if I deliberately drive my car at someone just intending to cripple them but killing them in the process, I shouldn't? That's weird, even for you.

It should depend who the person you drove said car at was IMO

Re: Death penalty? : Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:15 pm  

Mintball wrote:

You could add to that argument, the person who can't run into the burning building, because they're in a wheelchair or are 82.

Do age or disability mean that people become less special?

That's a quite brilliant piece of twisted logic, but it spectacularly misses the point. Prior to running into the burning building to save your ass, the rescuer might have been an axe-murderer, or a serial paedophile. the act does not redefine their entire past and future myriad of actions and choices as 'special'. To you, subjectively, and indeed objectively, they would surely be 'special', as they had no need to risk their life to save yours.

In this discussion, the NY firemen who ran up the burning Twin Towers were to a man* 'special' for doing that, clearly they knew there was a huge risk they would never make it out. Did any of them beat their wives or cheat their tax? I don't know. Is it relevant to the point? No. But it is a major point to be weighed in the balance if you were considering how special they were, overall, as a human being. * or woman

Stephen Hawking is no less special than he ever was for not having run up the Twin Towers, but even if he's sure he would have done it if he could, that belief doesn't make him objectively more special. Whereas what he has achieved in his life, and against massive odds, does.

Are you perhaps confusing the right to life with this issue? Every human has the same equal right to their life. That is the whole point of arguments against the death penalty. Myra Hindley was not a special human being, but an evil barstard who deserved to die in jail. Nelson Mandela is a special human being. As a human being he is infinitely more special than Hindley. That is so, even though they had the same equal right to life. It's their choice of what they do with it that differentiates between them.

Re: Death penalty? : Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:22 pm  

Perhaps I was confusing it with the subject of this thread.

Re: Death penalty? : Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:30 pm  

Instead of setting the bar for 'what and who deserves the death penalty' what are people's thoughts on judges being given the power to sentence it?

In my opinion the people who want the death sentence are making that decision on the back of a knee jerk reaction due to frustration at the cushy prisons and sentences handed out probably due to over crowded jails.

Maybe if we built a few more jails (floating prisons even) and dished out harsher sentences then maybe this question/demand on the death penalty might go away.

Re: Death penalty? : Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:35 pm  

post wrote: Instead of setting the bar for 'what and who deserves the death penalty' what are people's thoughts on judges being given the power to sentence it? In my opinion the people who want the death sentence are making that decision on the back of a knee jerk reaction due to frustration at the cushy prisons and sentences handed out probably due to over crowded jails. Maybe if we built a few more jails (floating prisons even) and dished out harsher sentences then maybe this question/demand on the death penalty might go away. Or ...

post wrote: Instead of setting the bar for 'what and who deserves the death penalty' what are people's thoughts on judges being given the power to sentence it? In my opinion the people who want the death sentence are making that decision on the back of a knee jerk reaction due to frustration at the cushy prisons and sentences handed out probably due to over crowded jails. Maybe if we built a few more jails (floating prisons even) and dished out harsher sentences then maybe this question/demand on the death penalty might go away. Or ...

Re: Death penalty? : Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:57 pm  

Rather than niggling about who gets is the victim, I'd like to ask the OP why he wants the death penalty rather than another sentence.

Is it to protect the public from further murder? (Imprisonment has the same effect)
Is it to deter the murderer in the first place (demonstrably does not work)

I suspect it is because he sees the death penalty as punishment ... aka revenge.
And that, I'm afraid, is not a good reason ... but it's common among so-called Christians who fail to follow in the thoughts of their star philosopher.