Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:38 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Except they arent. Whatever you think of the actions of the Israeli state what is happening isnt anything like the holocaust. These events simply arent analogous or parallel. There are many more relevant and analogous situations which what is happening is similar to.

The crimes arent similar at all, the gaza strip is nothing like Auchwitz and the west bank is nothing like Treblinka.

On a factual basis the two things arent similar at all. Even if you wanted to equate the horror of them, there are still more relevant parallels. They are actually, so distinctly different as situations that if Israel wasnt a Jewish state, no-one would equate it to the holocaust any more than they would equate it to the situation in North Korea or historically Sri Lanka, cambodia, east timor.

They are systematically oppressing and killing Palestinians. They flout international law to do so. The scale isn't the same as the holocaust, but the end aims are similar, and the means of achieving them little better.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:40 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

He admitted no such thing. You made that bit up.

This seems pretty circular, but yes i dont dispute i assumed that Gerald Scarfe wasnt a horrible person.

It would just be easier for all of us if you read one of the many times i have written that rather than you just keep saying, "you said this based on your assumption" and i say "yes, yes i did"

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:45 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

This seems pretty circular, but yes i dont dispute i assumed that Gerald Scarfe wasnt a horrible person.

It would just be easier for all of us if you read one of the many times i have written that rather than you just keep saying, "you said this based on your assumption" and i say "yes, yes i did"

But then you deny that you made something up. You made an assumption that clearly wasn't reasonable to make, given the clarity of his statement, then tried to dress it up as something else.

Either way, it's sod all to do with him 'being a horrible person', it's to do with whether or not he had anything to apologise for. Which, after clarifying his position (and arguably before that), he did not. Your silly 'assumption' does little to advance the debate.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:46 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

They are systematically oppressing and killing Palestinians. They flout international law to do so. The scale isn't the same as the holocaust, but the end aims are similar, and the means of achieving them little better.

Im sure if you wanted, you could make pretty much anything analogous by in the way you have there. Though I would question why you would want to do so.

The means are ridiculously different, the end aims also massively different, the reasons for doing so very very different, in fact it is more correct to just say, they are very very different things. The West Bank and Gaza strip arent anything like the concentration camps. Its just fairly obvious that the Israel-palestinian conflict isnt anything like the holocaust. Which leaves a pretty valid question of why someone would want to equate them.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:51 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

But then you deny that you made something up. You made an assumption that clearly wasn't reasonable to make, given the clarity of his statement, then tried to dress it up as something else.

Either way, it's sod all to do with him 'being a horrible person', it's to do with whether or not he had anything to apologise for. Which, after clarifying his position (and arguably before that), he did not. Your silly 'assumption' does little to advance the debate.

I never actually said he would apologise for the point he was trying to make, i was quite clear on that. My assumption was that he would apologise for unintentionally offending someone. My assumption was that Gerald Scarfe would have rather communicated what he meant to communicate and stand by that, rather than unintentionally communicate something else, then ignore the offense that would cause.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:53 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Im sure if you wanted, you could make pretty much anything analogous by in the way you have there.

Not really.

SmokeyTA wrote:

The means are ridiculously different, the end aims also massively different, the reasons for doing so very very different, in fact it is more correct to just say, they are very very different things. The West Bank and Gaza strip arent anything like the concentration camps. Its just fairly obvious that the Israel-palestinian conflict isnt anything like the holocaust. Which leaves a pretty valid question of why someone would want to equate them.

The means are ridiculously different? They kill and oppress Palestinians. That the Nazis did so with gas chambers and the Israeli state does not hardly equates to the two being 'ridiculously different'. The end aims aren't particularly different, either. They want to drive Palestinians out of their lands and take them for their own. If they don't leave of their own accord, they'll be mistreated or killed. Once again, not 'ridiculously different'. What you have is an imbalance of power - the Israeli state holds all of it, the Palestinians none. I'd imagine if you spoke to any Palestinian caught up in the 'conflict', that they'd feel every bit as wronged as the Jews in Nazi Germany did.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:57 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

I never actually said he would apologise for the point he was trying to make, i was quite clear on that. My assumption was that he would apologise for unintentionally offending someone. My assumption was that Gerald Scarfe would have rather communicated what he meant to communicate and stand by that, rather than unintentionally communicate something else, then ignore the offense that would cause.

You said:

"But even the artist is in agreement that there was a better time, place and way of him doing so."

That is quite obviously not the case. He mentioned only the time. He did not say there was a better place for him to make his point, nor did he express any regret at the way he'd made it.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:12 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

Not really.

The means are ridiculously different? They kill and oppress Palestinians. That the Nazis did so with gas chambers and the Israeli state does not hardly equates to the two being 'ridiculously different'.
The end aims aren't particularly different, either. They want to drive Palestinians out of their lands and take them for their own. If they don't leave of their own accord, they'll be mistreated or killed. Once again, not 'ridiculously different'. What you have is an imbalance of power - the Israeli state holds all of it, the Palestinians none. I'd imagine if you spoke to any Palestinian caught up in the 'conflict', that they'd feel every bit as wronged as the Jews in Nazi Germany did.

Nonsense just complete nonsense. Lets see you back up the point, lets see the similarities that exist only between the holocaust and the israel-palestinian conflict. Not vague nonsense like above which could probably apply to any conflict over the last thousand years, but real and tangible links between only the holocaust and the israel-palestine conflict that means they are valid and useful parallels.

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:14 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

You said:

"But even the artist is in agreement that there was a better time, place and way of him doing so."

That is quite obviously not the case. He mentioned only the time. He did not say there was a better place for him to make his point, nor did he express any regret at the way he'd made it.

If you want to assume Gerald Scarfe is happy that his cartoon was misinterpreted then fine, i dont care. I assume he would want to make the point he actually wanted to make rather than have it interpreted in another way, that he didnt mean.

[Kosh]

Re: anti semitic or anti Zionist : Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:32 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

If you want to assume Gerald Scarfe is happy that his cartoon was misinterpreted then fine, i dont care.

Nobody has made that assumption.

SmokeyTA wrote:

I assume he would want to make the point he actually wanted to make rather than have it interpreted in another way, that he didnt mean.

He did make the point that he wanted to make. That some people misunderstood that point - quite possibly deliberately in certain cases - is not his fault and he therefore has nothing to apologise for. Which is why he didn't.