Re: Eastleigh : Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:53 pm  

Anakin Skywalker wrote:

Quite interesting and I like the line 'Lib Dems empty the bins'.
My point still stands that if UKIP win more seats and get near the Tories (Let us not forget that we are talking about MEP's not a general so the protest vote is still a high posibility) then all the nice figures in the world may not stop the Tories coming to a couple of difficult decisions (The TORY Lord Ashcroft has made that look rather clear).

May I take this opportunity to state that I am neither a xenophobe or a UKIP voter.


Basically UKIP win enough MEP votes=Cameron out and a possible referendum in an not needed decision to head UKIP off.

Eastleigh was a meaningless by election though, simply because Labour were never a factor. That changes the entire dynamic. The general election will still come down to Labour v Tory with both parties chasing the centre vote.

Re: Eastleigh : Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:57 pm  

The Video Ref wrote:

I don't see your point. The theory behind pensions is that you pay in for the duration of your working life. The state, or your pension provider, then pays out for the duration of your retirement.

The 'theory' is that people pay for many benefits via NI/tax – not just pensions.

The Video Ref wrote:

Please do me the courtesy of reading what I post, and not trying to manipulate it or selectively quote me to suit your own ends.

I never said disability was a lifestyle choice. I said disability benefits should be there as a safety net to help the genuinely needy.

Then please do us the courtesy of writing what you mean. Clearly.

previously, The Video Ref wrote:

Disability benefits, as with any benefits, should be there as a safety net to help the genuinely needy. They should not be a lifestyle choice.

'They' refers to your subject. The subject in this is "disability benefits". Thus when you say "they" should not be a lifestyle choice, that is what you are referring to. And if disability benefits are a "lifestyle choice", then it is logical to conclude that disability itself is a "lifestyle choice".

The Video Ref wrote:

Or, to put it another way, I don't have a problem with people claiming disability benefits. I do however have a problem with people kicking the booty out of the system because they have some mild form of ilness that they want to make the most out of.

So where is your evidence then, for this mass pee-taking?

Re: Eastleigh : Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:12 pm  

So where is your evidence then, for this mass pee-taking? Unfortunately The Times is now on subscription. Otherwise you would have had a link to that. Nevertheless, I give you: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... drive.html There, you have what the 'Sin Bin Intellectual Elite' froth at the mouth (and quite possibly somewhere else) for in any good Sin Bin dust up: A link to a right-leaning newspaper. That you will now try and discredit on the basis that it came from a right-leaning newspaper. I standby for the inevitable abuse that will follow. Because that really is the level some people argue at on here, particularly if they have had a couple of glasses of shandy. (Anyway, I guess that secretly you were hoping I would use the Daily Mail.)

So where is your evidence then, for this mass pee-taking? Unfortunately The Times is now on subscription. Otherwise you would have had a link to that. Nevertheless, I give you: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... drive.html There, you have what the 'Sin Bin Intellectual Elite' froth at the mouth (and quite possibly somewhere else) for in any good Sin Bin dust up: A link to a right-leaning newspaper. That you will now try and discredit on the basis that it came from a right-leaning newspaper. I standby for the inevitable abuse that will follow. Because that really is the level some people argue at on here, particularly if they have had a couple of glasses of shandy. (Anyway, I guess that secretly you were hoping I would use the Daily Mail.)

Re: Eastleigh : Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:14 pm  

Okay.

Now where is your evidence for "widespread abuse"?

You may need to bear in mind what the word 'abuse' actually means in such a context.

Re: Eastleigh : Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:25 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Okay.

Now where is your evidence for "widespread abuse"?

Read the article. Particularly the bit which states that 145,000 were found to be fit for work. Of which 39,500 had been on incapacity benefit for more than a decade.

You may need to bear in mind what the word 'abuse' actually means in such a context.

I give the word 'abuse' its literal meaning. As in one that you can find in the dictionary. Google search it if you seek clarification. I am not sure what context you are trying to use the word in.

If splitting hairs over the interpretation of single words is your thing, might I suggest telephoning a barristers' chambers. They will no doubt provide someone who you can have endless hours of fun talking to. For a fee, of course.

Re: Eastleigh : Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:29 pm  

The Video Ref wrote: Unfortunately The Times is now on subscription. Otherwise you would have had a link to that. Nevertheless, I give you: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... drive.html There, you have what the 'Sin Bin Intellectual Elite' froth at the mouth (and quite possibly somewhere else) for in any good Sin Bin dust up: A link to a right-leaning newspaper. That you will now try and discredit on the basis that it came from a right-leaning newspaper. I standby for the inevitable abuse that will follow. Because that really is the level some people argue at on here, particularly if they have had a couple of glasses of shandy. (Anyway, I guess that secretly you were hoping I would use the Daily Mail.) That's a link to an opinion about the new guidelines the government has set Atos to move people off Disability. A process that has so far managed to pass cancer sufferers as fit for work, only to see them die within 3 months of being assessed. A process that has a 40% reversal rate on appeal. A process that is basically flawed and does nothing to prove that there are widespread abuses of disability benefits

The Video Ref wrote: Unfortunately The Times is now on subscription. Otherwise you would have had a link to that. Nevertheless, I give you: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... drive.html There, you have what the 'Sin Bin Intellectual Elite' froth at the mouth (and quite possibly somewhere else) for in any good Sin Bin dust up: A link to a right-leaning newspaper. That you will now try and discredit on the basis that it came from a right-leaning newspaper. I standby for the inevitable abuse that will follow. Because that really is the level some people argue at on here, particularly if they have had a couple of glasses of shandy. (Anyway, I guess that secretly you were hoping I would use the Daily Mail.) That's a link to an opinion about the new guidelines the government has set Atos to move people off Disability. A process that has so far managed to pass cancer sufferers as fit for work, only to see them die within 3 months of being assessed. A process that has a 40% reversal rate on appeal. A process that is basically flawed and does nothing to prove that there are widespread abuses of disability benefits

Re: Eastleigh : Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:35 pm  

The Video Ref wrote:

Read the article...

I did.

'Abuse' suggests something deliberate – thus 'X number of people set out to abuse such and such'. It is a word that involves intent – and an abuser.

Now, for the sake of this, let's set aside Coddy's (legitimate) observation that this is an opinion piece – and could you therefore provide the evidence of "widespread abuse" of disability benefits, bearing in mind the meaning of abuse*.







* Abuse does not include (claimed) situations of testing not being strong enough etc.

Re: Eastleigh : Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:19 pm  

The Video Ref wrote:

Or, to put it another way, I don't have a problem with people claiming disability benefits. I do however have a problem with people kicking the booty out of the system because they have some mild form of ilness that they want to make the most out of.

Just out of interest, who do you think would be the best qualified person to assess the difference between a disability and a mild form of illness ?

a) A medically qualified person who would know the difference between a disability and a mild form of illness but who has no agenda with regard to who is or isn't entitled to claim for benefits based on their medical opinion.

b) A clerical worker who may or may not have some medical qualifications but who is tasked with achieving a percentage of refusals and a sanction of removing them from the well paid work if they don't achieve those targets ?

Re: Eastleigh : Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:23 pm  

I believe I read that the fraudulent claim rate for DLA (according to the government itself) is a whopping 0.5%.

Re: Eastleigh : Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:59 pm  

The Video Ref wrote: Unfortunately The Times is now on subscription. Otherwise you would have had a link to that. Nevertheless, I give you: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... drive.html There, you have what the 'Sin Bin Intellectual Elite' froth at the mouth (and quite possibly somewhere else) for in any good Sin Bin dust up: A link to a right-leaning newspaper. That you will now try and discredit on the basis that it came from a right-leaning newspaper. I standby for the inevitable abuse that will follow. Because that really is the level some people argue at on here, particularly if they have had a couple of glasses of shandy. (Anyway, I guess that secretly you were hoping I would use the Daily Mail.) Total benefit fraud is estimated at £1.2bn That's the total mind you, including pensions, short-term sickness, housing benefit etc. While £16bn benefits go unclaimed

The Video Ref wrote: Unfortunately The Times is now on subscription. Otherwise you would have had a link to that. Nevertheless, I give you: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... drive.html There, you have what the 'Sin Bin Intellectual Elite' froth at the mouth (and quite possibly somewhere else) for in any good Sin Bin dust up: A link to a right-leaning newspaper. That you will now try and discredit on the basis that it came from a right-leaning newspaper. I standby for the inevitable abuse that will follow. Because that really is the level some people argue at on here, particularly if they have had a couple of glasses of shandy. (Anyway, I guess that secretly you were hoping I would use the Daily Mail.) Total benefit fraud is estimated at £1.2bn That's the total mind you, including pensions, short-term sickness, housing benefit etc. While £16bn benefits go unclaimed